• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Mauser 96 Overpressure

What is most perplexing is the fact that the third shot was over 200 fps faster than the first! The only thing that can cause that is the powder charge. Are you sure that you didn't overload the third cartridge? I can't think of anything beyond the powder that would cause such a spike in velocity! BTW, be aware that many loads listed in reloading manuals are for a modern firearm and not for an old military action. I shoot a lot of C&R rifles as a collector, and I always start probably 2 grains BELOW the minimum load for just that reason.
That is exactly what is most confusing. I meticulously weigh every charge and the two I pulled were spot on at 48grs. All I can think of is copper fouling and I spent a considerable amount of time with a bore brush and solvent before the first firing. Spent another hour this evening removing more fouling tonight. The bore at the muzzle measured .262 between the lands and what I’m leaning towards is copper fouling, buildup around the throat, and perhaps a tight bore.
I shoot old rifles, so I keep old manuals. Most old manuals, 50-60’s list max pressure for the cartridge in the mid 40,000 range.

Later manuals warn against attempting max loads in the Mauser and Krag actions. Then there is the not so old manuals like the Hornady 9th.

View attachment 1300944
View attachment 1300945
Sorry for the glare, max load is 45 grains.

This is where Quickload pays for itself for every shot. More and more manuals do not list pressures, just min/max. That’s often a dangerous place to be with a pre SAAMI cartridge.
Thanks for the picture and I was using the Hornady 10th Edition. Test rifle was also off a Mauser 96 but a significant difference between the two. I’m having a gun smith look at the throat area tomorrow and thankfully the action held. Looks like I will be using the data you provided for any further testing.
 
This is very troubling and a huge warning if I read it correctly.

Did the case head actually expand .010” in diameter?

If that is the case check round #1 & #2 carefully. If they show a repeated increase in diameter, what you were doing is slowly expanding the chamber with every shot. Basically you were one or two shots from catastrophe.

It might be worth checking bore diameter and the transition from throat to rifling. I have seen enough old rifles with basically no throat, only a step for lack of better words. You shave off a certain amount of bullet with every shot and leave a ring that increases in size, decreasing your chamber or jump length significantly with every shot. That might explain the velocity increase.
The case head from the 3rd shot measured .010 over the unfired Norma brass. The first and second diameters were only .003 over. When measured with with a Hornady gauge off the shoulder, the third shot cartridge also increased in length at the shoulder by .010. The bore diameter at the muzzle measured .262 with a caliper but not sure with the width of the caliper blades it is accurate. Here is a picture of the bolt face. 1640067971150.jpeg
 
The loads in Hornady #11 use Hornady/Frontier brass. How does the Norma brass compare in internal capacity? Their start load is 43.1 gr. or approx. 10% less than max... good idea with an unknown rifle & new to you mismatched components. Do you know the difference in bearing length between the Nosler & the Hornady bullets? With a known to be less than "modern" rifle, why start with a max or near max load in different brass with a different bullet even if the bullet weight is the same?

Per the VV 2019 reloading guide they used Lapua brass. Again, what is the internal capacity difference between Lapua & Norma? VV also has no data for the Nosler bullet. All bullets listed from 139 to 140 gr. the start load is between 39.4 gr & 46.3 gr. The max loads are between 46.3 gr & 50 gr. with quite a few less than 48 gr. With a known to be less than "modern" rifle, why start with a max, near max, or maybe over max load in different brass with a different bullet even if the bullet weight is the same?
^^ This. As an example, a certain load for my .17 Remington reaches the neck/shoulder junction with Remington brass. That same load fills the case to the mouth of the case with Nosler brass. Totally unusable. You can imagine the pressure difference if I used it in the Noslers, especially at .17 pressures. I would expect a blown primer at the very least. Maximum loads are to be approached with extreme caution. Most of the loads in my various rifles reach maximum at least a grain less than the "book" pressures in most manuals. Besides, most manuals don't agree as to what maximum is in any given powder/bullet/case combination. Even just changing powder lots can make the difference between a hot load and a blown case.
 
FWIW, I find it hard to believe that fouling in the barrel (short of an obstruction) would somehow cause a variation of 200 fps. More and more, I suspect that the powder is unstable. I would switch to 4350 which is what I have used in 7MM Mauser and 6,5 Swede loads with the best success.
 
Maximum velocities for the 6.5X55 are in the 2700 fps range for 140 grain bullets. You are lucky you didn't get a face full of gas! I don't know the loading specs for the powder you mention, but I HIGHLY doubt they recommend loading to 2900 feet per second. I suggest you get a good loading data book and stick to the maximum loads shown therein.
2700 fps? Try 2600 with H4831. You are well into danger territory. If you want more out of the 6.5x55 get a Mauser 98 or some other modern bolt gun before you hurt yourself. Or be happy with the performance of the original load. It works very well as is.
 
I shoot old rifles, so I keep old manuals. Most old manuals, 50-60’s list max pressure for the cartridge in the mid 40,000 range.

Later manuals warn against attempting max loads in the Mauser and Krag actions. Then there is the not so old manuals like the Hornady 9th.

View attachment 1300944
View attachment 1300945
Sorry for the glare, max load is 45 grains.

This is where Quickload pays for itself for every shot. More and more manuals do not list pressures, just min/max. That’s often a dangerous place to be with a pre SAAMI cartridge.
The OP’s post made my brain itch so I went to my Hornady (8th Edition) book and the data is the same as Dellet’s. 45 grains of Viht-165 is the MAX load. I really think this is your problem but it may be added to by your guns bore condition.
I love the cartridge so much that I built a custom gun for it with a modern Stiller action to reap it’s full potential. I’ll have to carefully manage my reloads so the “high powered” loads don’t go in the wrong gun.
I have an old M38 Husquvarna that I like to shoot and hunt with. My load is 38 grains of H100V behind a 120 gr. Sierra BTHP or the Hornady 120 A-MAX. The book says I should be around 2400 FPS and I’m 3.6 grains below MAX load. It’s a very accurate load for the gun.
Glad you weren’t hurt!
Merry Christmas and be careful!
Josh
 
From VV load data
6.5SE/Skan 139 Scenar
Max
N165Start44.12536Max50.22831

6.5 Swede 140 Sierra
N165Start46.32513Max50.02735
Don't confuse the Skan with an original Swede. These loads are for a Skan and way too hot for a M96
 
Don't confuse the Skan with an original Swede. These loads are for a Skan and way too hot for a M96
The top load designated, in the Skan section of the VV loading manual.
The bottom load is designated in the Swede section of the VV Loading manual


The OP went to the powder mfg reloading data for guidance. He didn't blindly stick his finger in the wind and come up with 48 grains for a test.
To me, it seems that there is something amiss with his equipment when he shot 3 loads at 48 grains with that much variation in speed and pressure. However, the first shot out of a cold clean bore usually the slowest shot of the day.
 
So I took the rifle to a Hi Tech Customs in Colorado Springs and he examined the bore and throat. Gunsmith just happens to build custom rifles off Husky 1600s/98s and probably has a hundred Mausers in his shop. He said it was rough around the throat and in the bore but didn’t see any issues for a rifle of this age. He was strongly against using N-165 and said in his experience it was very inconsistent. He also checked the head space and the bolt easily closed on the no go gauge. He couldn’t speculate as to if it was already excessive or happened after firing but stated only to neck size, which was my original intention. I do have a field gauge I ordered but still waiting for it to be delivered from Midway. He actually spent quite a bit of time pulling up loads on what I believe is Quick Load but have never used it. When he pulled up 48grs of N-165 out of a 27.5in barrel it came back with 52,000PSI and around 2690fps with a 140gr bullet. The pressure produced was significantly more than that to imprint the bolt face and have a blown primer but Kimber did rebarrel these actions in 60,000PSI chamberings. His recommendation was to keep pressures under 50k and went on to advise 7828ssc. No explanation as to the very inconsistent (200fps) velocity spread but I think I will hold off on using N-165 for development. I did weigh each load using a Lyman digital scale and the two unfired cartridges were pulled and the powder charge was indeed 48grs. I personally would be quick to lean towards on overcharge if I read this but can’t see myself doing that. Powder was just bought online from the only place I could actually find powder and sealed. Regardless, lesson learned with starting loads, especially from a non SAMMI chamber. Appreciate all the help and guess I’m not going to figure out what caused the excess pressure on two subsequent firings but appreciate all the help from members on this forum.
 
Yes, here's a QuickLoad print of your load, using your 3.130 COAL. Do note that a pretty critical piece of information is missing... the actual capacity of the brass you were using. According to the QL defaults here, you were running a mildly compressed load.

Followed by a QuickLoad powder chart centered around N165's burning rate. As you can see, N165 is far from the ideal powder for a 140gr Accubond in the 6.5 Swede.

Lots of good advice and counsel in this thread, so I won't belabor it, other than to reiterate that when contemplating load sources... the bullet manufacturer's own data is usually the best starting point. And when you come across data that's a lot "better performing" than everyone else's, it's time to tread carefully.

Welcome to the forum!


QL_6.5x55_Swedish_140gr_Accubond_48.0_N165.png

QL_6.5x55_Swedish_Powder_Chart1.png

QL_6.5x55_Swedish_Powder_Chart2.png
 
Ive never known VV powders to go that wild. Im anxious to see borescope pics.

We've used N165 in Europe for many years and it's an effective and popular powder in a large number of applications. I've personally used it for around 10 years in 6.5-284, 284 Win, and 6.5X55SE, the last in a Savage PTA based F-Class rifle. 'N165 very inconsistent'? Rubbish. However, IME and that of others, when you do overdo loads with many slower burning N100 series grades, they can pressure-spike very quickly and unpleasantly. I've seen this with N140, 150, and 160 in load development with my own rifles over the years, though never N165. I did however see a friend using the 284 and 180 Hybrid suffer this in a BR match and have to withdraw.

For an M96 Swede, I wouldn't use 48gn with a standard jacketed lead core bullet as a too high load, and would more likely choose a considerably lower charge of faster burning N160 for this application. I've no idea if the Accubond generates higher pressures than conventional 140gn match bullets, but wouldn't be surprised if it does. To be honest, this case surprises me as it's difficult with most bullets to get enough N165 into a 6.5X55 case to produce serious over-pressures.

QuickLOAD results? When I first encountered desktop computers at work some decades ago, there was a mantra drummed into users - GIGO, or Garbage In = Garbage Out. Viht serially allocates overly slow burning speed factors to its powders, and unfortunately the data the company has given to QL's compiler reflects this with Ba (burn speed factor) default values sometimes very far out from real life. (QL is updated in the light of user feedback and N160 has recently been heavily revised from its previously virtually unusable form, and this has been done over the years with other N100-series powders too.)

I'd also suggest having a look at your electronic scales' accuracy. I've long believed that scale check weights should be in every handloader's toolkit and used regularly. Whilst quality beam scales are usually very accurate and stable, cheaper Chinese manufactured electronics are often neither. I once saw a brand new 6.5X47 custom rifle come very close to disaster with a massive over-pressure caused by Chinese made compact electronic scales also on their first use that were subsequently found to be reading around 2.5gn too low.
 
You've received a ton of good info here, I would suggest looking at Nosler data when using their bullets. I shoot a lot of Accubonds and Partitions, and Nosler data is almost always a good bit lower than generic manuals.

Nosler doesn't show n165 data for the 6.5x55, but comparing their loads to Lyman, Nosler is lower with all powders.

Years ago, I innocently (stupidly) subbed Partitions for the Hornady 30 cal. 180s I had developed the load with. One shot, one blown primer, one lesson learned, luckily without damage to me or the gun.

Dave
 
It seems that many of the well-meaning posts above have ignored the fact that the OP’s load had a very high ES in both velocity and pressure. A simple over-charge would not exhibit this, so assuming that all three cartridges indeed had the same charge then simply “looking at a different reloading manual” will be of no help. With no meaningful explanation for his issue, the OP is wise to eschew further use of that particular powder.



.
 
It seems that many of the well-meaning posts above have ignored the fact that the OP’s load had a very high ES in both velocity and pressure. A simple over-charge would not exhibit this, so assuming that all three cartridges indeed had the same charge then simply “looking at a different reloading manual” will be of no help. With no meaningful explanation for his issue, the OP is wise to eschew further use of that particular powder.



.


There is no meaningful ES here that I can see, that is ES values in the usual form which see (say) the highest MV for the charge weight from the 2nd shot and the lowest from the 4th or 5th which if vastly different would suggest powder incompatibility / unsuitability, ignition problems etc.

Rather as I read it, pressures / MVs rose sequentially during the session and based on the MVs by considerable amounts ending up at a dangerous level. That in itself doesn't implicate or suggest anything about powder suitability. If a powder / load is unstable it will produce random MV changes throughout even a short string.

Substantial and sequential increases in pressure as suggested here can only arise from three causes:

1. Each powder charge weight was (from whatever cause) rising unknown to the handloader who believed they were consistent.

2. Something in the firearm changed progressively between shots and increased pressures substantially shot to shot as the session progressed. eg very severe coppering.

3. Charge compression was such that COALs were increasing alongside charges due to an excessively compressed powder column pushing them back out. Much as I love the Mauser M1893/95/96 cock on closing actions, one downside is that they need substantial effort to close the bolt and any extra resistance to final closure from an over-length cartridge jam-seating the bullet is easier to miss than on a cock on opening type. Working against that are most Swedish Mauser chamber dimensions whose throats are so long that it is usually difficult to produce a COAL that jam seats bullets.

The only directly powder relevant factor that is involved is that if 1. to 3. are increasing pressures, the burn behaviours of all smokeless powders are such that since 'pressure feeds on pressure', pressures start to rise exponentially after a particular maximum safe pressure level has been passed. (As opposed to tables in handloading manuals Like Sierra's and Hornady's which use MV related columns, and internal ballistic programs such as QuickLOAD where both forms show linear pressure / MV increases throughout the entire charge weight range.)

Some powders are more affected than others by this effect, but that doesn't make them 'unsuitable' for the application in themselves, only if they are inherently unsuitable for it in the first place and with any charge weight. Nammo Vihtavuori Oy is a very careful, responsible company even by energetics company standards, and if it quotes N165 loads for 6.5X55mm and 140gn bullets, as it does, I for one take it as read that this powder is suitable for the cartridge and bullet weight.

Most experienced handloaders in this day and age of widespread chronograph use have experienced the common phenomenon of per grain or tenth grain equivalent MV increases becoming greater as charges rise, sometimes quite substantially between two modestly different charge weights. This may a result of passing a critical pressure threshold, which sees leaking or blown primers as likely results from the next charge weight increment even if very small. (This is sometimes seen though for more benign reasons due to the powder 'coming on tune' as it works more efficiently within higher pressure ranges and a higher charge burn percentage is now being achieved.) If the former (passing critical pressure levels) reason, the result is that any further charge increases produce increasingly large and excessive pressure rises quickly rising to dangerous levels.

Progressively severe barrel coppering can have a similar effect for cartridges that have been carefully and extremely consistently loaded by experienced and expert handloaders. The European F-Class Championships used to be held annually at Bisley UK in early November. As the very end of the UK's top-line fixtures season, a remarkable number of 308 Win FTR rifles had barrels which were at the 'It'll get through one last event' wear stage. Many didn't! In a fixture with six matches, four 2+15 and two 2+ 20, the symptoms were easily read. First the owners desperately scrubbing barrels out with copper removers between each stage, but in individual 15 round matches the scorer would see shots progressively score lower and on occasions the shooter started to struggle to open the bolt in the last few shots. Most people would recognise the safety implications of carrying on at this point and retired before pressures got completely out of hand. This had nothing to do with 'powder suitability' or some such factor except in that the starting point was an already high-pressure load.

The only other reasons I can conceive are the out of the box causes that cause so many handloaded ammunition problems. A different faster burning powder left in a powder measure from a previous session (but that would produce the dangerous pressures on the first charge if cartridges are shot in the order they were loaded, or if that doesn't apply should only affect one shot in the string.) Wrong grade poured back into the bottle or used and so on. But they all fail as reasons if pressures / MVs rose sequentially.
 
Ackley does not cover overloading Swedish Mausers.
So I bought a 94, 96, and 38 just for overload work ups.

Cutting to the chase... there is a reason Shotgun News was selling 96 Mausers in 270.
 
I ask because about 10 years ago a guy in Alaska got 5 receivers of Oviedo 93 and Swedish 96 Mausers to see what it would take to blow them up. The 96 Mauser finally blew up at 127kpsi and the Spanish Mauser did not blow up, but the receiver deformed enough to make it unusable. The load was 41 grains of Alliant 2400 if I remember correctly.
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,814
Messages
2,203,110
Members
79,110
Latest member
miles813
Back
Top