match-barrel wear from copper-plated vs. lead round-nose bullets?

[hpshooter]

If memory serves me correctly, I remember reading that the ammo was loaded specifically for each of the rifles the US team used and that the patent involved using a polymer wad to prevent distortion to the heels of the projectiles and that Federal determined that the cost of the insertion of the wad would be cost preventative for mass produced match ammo. A tremendous amount of time and money was expended to help Launi win the Gold medal that year.

I think Precision Shooting had a lengthy write up on the development of the ammunition.

Although his ideas are often meet with great skepticism Bill Calfee wrote a lot about the 6 o'clock erosion in PS and had pictures of sectioned barrels to illustrate it.

T W Hudson

 

[Ggmac]

I've got about 10 22 lr reamers , I tested 3 extensively , the win 52 D,22anschutz , 22ptg match and a little of the 22 ultimateEPS . It got complicated with the ammo shortage . At t least I had about 20,000 rounds , HAD that is . Using the same make barrels on the same receiver . I found the Win 52d reamer best with more ammo manuf. second was the Anschutz . The win engraves a lot more of the bullet . I was using a 40xb first than changed and started over on a win 52 . Smaller threads made it easier for me . I had coned breeches , so no extractor cuts to make .
If you have only one reamer , cut short and cut your rim separate .
Thank God I bought these PTG Reamers when they were $38 each . That was just 5 yrs ago . Ouch if I tried this now .
22 lr barrels wear out more from improper cleaning than round count . Just my observations .

 

[AckleymanII]

If memory serves me correctly, I remember reading that the ammo was loaded specifically for each of the rifles the US team used and that the patent involved using a polymer wad to prevent distortion to the heels of the projectiles and that Federal determined that the cost of the insertion of the wad would be cost preventative for mass produced match ammo. A tremendous amount of time and money was expended to help Launi win the Gold medal that year.

I think Precision Shooting had a lengthy write up on the development of the ammunition.

Although his ideas are often meet with great skepticism Bill Calfee wrote a lot about the 6 o'clock erosion in PS and had pictures of sectioned barrels to illustrate it.

T W Hudson

Bill Davis took a lot of pictures of the bullets exiting the barrel, they changed designs several times. No doubt, it was a world class effort to beat the Russians who were ahead of the whole world in 22RF at the time..no close second. Each individual component was a major undertaking since there had been little if any R & D in 50+ years on new technology.

Case and rim design
Powder
Priming compound
bullet design
Lube

These guys learned so much, but very much of it would even be acceptable to the public in general.
Yes, barrels are ruined and worn by cleaning rods and attachments, they covered all the bases. 250 round cleaning intervals was acceptable for competition, in the beginning. Jeez, just look at how many people don't believe you can wear out a 22 RF barrel or whether or not they should be cleaned.

I think that I still have a bunch of the bullets(projectiles) that did not make the cut for one reason or another.

 

[linekin]

AckleymanII, do you know how much the barrels were set back? Was the tenon cut off & started fresh or something else?
I see nothing to lose with this if it was once a good barrel. If it comes back to life, great! If not then you're into a new barrel anyway.
Thanks for the info.
Keith

 

[SBS]

.....
If you have only one reamer , cut short and cut your rim separate .
Thank God I bought these PTG Reamers when they were $38 each . That was just 5 yrs ago . Ouch if I tried this now .
22 lr barrels wear out more from improper cleaning than round count . Just my observations .

What quality target actions are there where you make a rim cut on the barrel? All that I'm familiar with have countersunk bolt faces and require no rim cut. Just curious.

While I agree that barrels can be ruined by improper cleaning, I don't believe this happens much with serious match shooters these days, given the widespread knowledge of proper cleaning and the all the specialized bore guides, rods, jags and good cleaning fluids available today. More serious is the reluctance to clean regularly, either from a fear of damaging the bore mechanically or not wanting to refoul the barrel a sufficient numbers of rounds after cleaning to make it settle down. The latter gives birth to the notion that cleaning hurts accuracy. Not cleaning WILL accelerate throat wear.

 

[AckleymanII]

AckleymanII, do you know how much the barrels were set back? Was the tenon cut off & started fresh or something else?
I see nothing to lose with this if it was once a good barrel. If it comes back to life, great! If not then you're into a new barrel anyway.
Thanks for the info.
Keith

HOw much to cut off is determined by pilots that come in graduated sets, .0001 or .0002. You start off large, and keep going down in size, till the bore becomes uniform.

This shows that the bore dia is .2186 and where the new throat should start, verified by bore scope(bore condition)


Next, using over size bushings, you can determine wear:


Where the end of the chamber will be, thus how much to cut off


This is a 223 AI barrel, Hart 14T, accuracy was restored to 95% new, with groups in the very low 2's. If you do not use this method or one similar, setting a barrel back can be a real waste of money as land height will be shallow. We have been using this method since the late 80's for setting back barrels. There are other considerations on setting back barrels also, like a guy's reputation. I do not do business for others.

I would like to add that setting back a factory barrel is an episode in madness and comes with a series of compromises, none of which I like, and I darn sure would not do it if I were in business dealing with customer's factory barrels.

Serious competitors rarely set back a barrel, and this may be a mistake. If you have a barrel that is one of those screamers, chances are if you cut an inch off the muzzle, then determine the wear pattern as shown, you will have a very good barrel, given that you have the shank and OAL to do so, which is usually not the case.

When ever a gunsmith says, "there is no accuracy guarantee" on a set back, you had better listen to him, it is usually very sound advise.

 

[Ggmac]

Single shot martini style rifles need a rim cut . Sorry I was saying "if " or should have said if a rim is needed .

I couldn't agree more with Ackley mans post above

 

[Tim s]

The guy that built the Olympic rifles taught me this, question is where did you get your information. We had a serious discussion on the bullets not engraving any more, he said it was normal wear as the engraving is very shallow. A carbon ring where the bullet engraves means that the bullet would show signs of this just by pushing the bullet into the chamber, and the Hawkeye would show it in a skinny minute.

We both have lathes, and 20 pilots per caliber to determine throat wear. We really don't care what others do, when the bullet is not being engraved anymore...make some choices to get the accuracy back...it is your party.

Glass in the priming compound erodes throats, at what rate depends on a lot, ammo brand could have something to do with it also as priming compounds vary.

The custom Ruger 10/22 with the 40x barrel on it, did not get cleaned very often, perhaps every 500 rounds plus. This barrel was shot on a target rich environment of Grounds squirrel where the Alfalfa pivot had an estimated 250,000 ground squirrels on it. So, we shot a lot of 22 mini mag HP, in the area of about 1000 rounds per trip. I don't know how the wear would vary from a single shot 40x shot in BR 50 matches.

By the way, throat dia. and leade angle are two very different issues on a reamer.

You better find a new teacher. My information comes from lots of years shooting 22 benchrest, with guns built by the most talented rimfire smiths on the planet and not one of them would agree with anything here.
Glass in primers does'nt erode throats, it will pit a stainless barrel at 6 o'clock for 12" .
Nobody in the br world sets a chamber back......nobody. And trust me, I know guys that also do barrels for several olympic teams, here and abroad.
Also, you can set back a cf any number of times, rimfire......whole different animal.

Lastly, a CM barrel with a throat eroading in 5000 rounds??? That is absurd. Likely, what you have is a barrel suffering from lack of proper cleaning.

 

[Tim s]

If memory serves me correctly, I remember reading that the ammo was loaded specifically for each of the rifles the US team used and that the patent involved using a polymer wad to prevent distortion to the heels of the projectiles and that Federal determined that the cost of the insertion of the wad would be cost preventative for mass produced match ammo. A tremendous amount of time and money was expended to help Launi win the Gold medal that year.

I think Precision Shooting had a lengthy write up on the development of the ammunition.

Although his ideas are often meet with great skepticism Bill Calfee wrote a lot about the 6 o'clock erosion in PS and had pictures of sectioned barrels to illustrate it.

T W Hudson

The Federal bullets used a variation on what everybody uses, a hollow based bullet that expanded upon firing to groove diameter to properly seal the bore.
The majority of the R&D went into powder and priming.
When it came out I had a few conversations with them about powder. They used something that developed a vastly different pressure curve resulting in the same velocity but cutting down the bullet time in barrel with a reduction in barrel resonance.

 

[Tim s]

Since I couldn't find the answer, Searching, I thought I'd ask:

What are your thoughts on match-grade barrel wear rate, using (copper) plated bullets vs. plain lead round-nose bullets?

I ask because it seems (to me) like the cheap rounds are copper-plated (washed) vs. lead round-nose employed in most higher quality match rounds.

I'm, also, wondering about match-grade barrel wear-rate impact, using super-sonic .22 LR's vs. sub-sonic rounds?

My concern is NOT with the relative barrel fouling from copper-plated vs. lead bullets. I understand why copper-plating/washing is employed. What I haven't seen is discussion, regarding copper-plating wear on a match-grade barrel, especially from super-sonic bullets.

If you'd share your insights, I'd be grateful. Hopefully, others might benefit, as well?

thanks,

Since nobody answered this, I'll give it a shot. Sub sonic vs supersonic is moot, I hardly think a couple hudered fps from a low pressure round make any difference.
You may get some copper wash in a barrel, no big deal, it's easy to remove with any number of purpose built solvents. Again, low pressure. Copper does not kill barrels. We shoot copper jackets down the same barrels in a 6PPC at 61,000 psi. Pretty easy to get copper out.
The real question is why would you take an expensive match grade bbl and run crappy copper wash ammo, because that's what it is.
The only reason for it's existance is as a substitute for proper wax based lubes that rimfires perform best with.

 

[linekin]

Tim, is the reason rf barrels are not set back due to the pitting you mentioned?

 

[Tim s]

Tim, is the reason rf barrels are not set back due to the pitting you mentioned?

No, and realize the more current ELEY has materialy reduced that pitting. It looks like they changed up on the type or size of the silicate in the priming.
Very few are willing to rechamber and few still with any success, I suspect because once the throat is "seasoned" it likely chamges the temper of a 416 or 416R match barrel leading to probable dimensional changes the second time that reamer goes in.
You want an education on it talk to Gordon. He's only one of many.
Actually, started an experiment late last season on a chamber that had beed "modified" to see if it would yield anything but the risks were discussed. Not enought time for proper evaluation

 

[AckleymanII]

My 40x barrel chambered with a reamer that engraved the bullets does not engrave bullets anymore with subsequent loss of accuracy. The barrel was shot slow fire on alfalfa pivots in a target rich environment on ground squirrels. Ammo used was CCI green tag, CCI std velocity, and CCI Mini Mag HP.

Wear was done by being fired, not from improper cleaning, possibly by not being cleaned often enough.

YOU can sort this any way you please, it is just the fact of the matter.

 

[SBS]

You better find a new teacher. My information comes from lots of years shooting 22 benchrest, with guns built by the most talented rimfire smiths on the planet and not one of them would agree with anything here.
Glass in primers does'nt erode throats, it will pit a stainless barrel at 6 o'clock for 12" .
Nobody in the br world sets a chamber back......nobody. And trust me, I know guys that also do barrels for several olympic teams, here and abroad.
Also, you can set back a cf any number of times, rimfire......whole different animal.

Lastly, a CM barrel with a throat eroading in 5000 rounds??? That is absurd. Likely, what you have is a barrel suffering from lack of proper cleaning.

Time to throw a little more gas on the fire (haven't had this much discussion on rimfires in a long time!). This picture is of a 5 shot group @ 50 yds. with an Eric Johnson barrel made in the 50's after it was rechambered. When I bought it, the shadow (depression) just ahead of the chamber was really heavy and it would hardly hold the 10 ring on the 50 yd. prone target (7/8" dia.) off the bench with any ammo. The bull is the IR 50-50 and there is a Win. large rifle primer on it (.210" dia.) for comparison. This is not for bragging rights, as I realize others have shot smaller groups, but it does show the value of rechambering barrels that have eroded throats. And, while I realize that I am a "nobody" (as in "nobody rechambers rimfire barrels"), I remember that Bill Calfee has done so (check back issues of Precision Shooting), and so did Karl Kenyon and I would not consider those fellows as a "nobody".

 

[SBS]

No, and realize the more current ELEY has materialy reduced that pitting. It looks like they changed up on the type or size of the silicate in the priming.
Very few are willing to rechamber and few still with any success, I suspect because once the throat is "seasoned" it likely chamges the temper of a 416 or 416R match barrel leading to probable dimensional changes the second time that reamer goes in..........

In Eley's bulletin of 3 Apr 2015, they state "In over 20 years, our primer and propellant configuration has not changed." www.eley.co.uk/the-bulletin/barrel-wear-myths-shot-down
I don't believe that even if that has changed in the last 10 months, no one shot enough of it to determine barrel wear.
The other interesting points here are the accuracy they achieved with two of their test barrels that had over 300,000 rds. through each. They use Anschutz barrels and that is probably a testament to the hardness of the barrel steel. BR shooters have primarily gone to SS barrels and wear down the bore shows up a lot sooner. A Lilja SS I have showed downstream wear after only a few thousand rounds exceeding that of much older CM Anschutz barrels I have examined. Many older match barrels I have examined that had deep depressions (throat shadows) also had good looking bores downstream. I believe the softer SS barrels, while perhaps more accurate on average, wear much faster down the bore and need replacing before they have time to develop heavy throat shadows. The article also stated the need for frequent cleaning and I do believe many of the older match rifles were not cleaned frequently enough and that contributed to front-of-chamber erosion.

 

[patriot]

50 yards doesn't demonstrate barrel accuracy anywhere near as reliably as 100. At 50 a 37 with a Johnson barrel, a like new 52C, and a Ballard Rigby with a CC Johnson barrel that was set back for a modern chamber all shoot one hole groups. But at 100 none of them will hang with a 40 X Lilja hung by Gene Davis.

 

[SBS]

50 yards doesn't demonstrate barrel accuracy anywhere near as reliably as 100. At 50 a 37 with a Johnson barrel, a like new 52C, and a Ballard Rigby with a CC Johnson barrel that was set back for a modern chamber all shoot one hole groups. But at 100 none of them will hang with a 40 X Lilja hung by Gene Davis.

There certainly is considerable variation in MOA accuracy depending upon distance and ammo/barrel combinations in specific barrels. I have seen barrels shoot better at 100 than at 50 with a particular ammo, although the reverse is usually true; which leads one to reason that ammo selection is more critical at longer range. In my experience, a rifle that will shoot very small groups at 50 will also do so at 100 with compatible ammo. In any case, rimfire BR shooting is done at 50yd/meters these days. There was a short trial period of 100 yd. BR in IR 50-50 and I think the lower scores dampened any enthusiasm for continuing it.

 

[patriot]

I'm a prone shooter so 100 is critical. Decent ammo definitely helps. There is only so much a tuner can correct. The recent RWS50 had pretty good chronograph numbers and shot well at 50, but at 100 the tuner settings on several rifles that worked well for Eley and Laupua had to be changed. After a while you just know from the on call shots at 100 how well a rifle is performing. I haven't seen a rifle/ammo that did well at 100 that was a problem at 50, but the metric prone is more forgiving than benchrest.

 

[Tim s]

In Eley's bulletin of 3 Apr 2015, they state "In over 20 years, our primer and propellant configuration has not changed." www.eley.co.uk/the-bulletin/barrel-wear-myths-shot-down
I don't believe that even if that has changed in the last 10 months, no one shot enough of it to determine barrel wear.
The other interesting points here are the accuracy they achieved with two of their test barrels that had over 300,000 rds. through each. They use Anschutz barrels and that is probably a testament to the hardness of the barrel steel. BR shooters have primarily gone to SS barrels and wear down the bore shows up a lot sooner. A Lilja SS I have showed downstream wear after only a few thousand rounds exceeding that of much older CM Anschutz barrels I have examined. Many older match barrels I have examined that had deep depressions (throat shadows) also had good looking bores downstream. I believe the softer SS barrels, while perhaps more accurate on average, wear much faster down the bore and need replacing before they have time to develop heavy throat shadows. The article also stated the need for frequent cleaning and I do believe many of the older match rifles were not cleaned frequently enough and that contributed to front-of-chamber erosion.

You might want to talk to somebody that was at the ELEY seminar this past year at a major BR match. They still use silicate, for sure. It changed. This is why nobody is experiencing the degree of pitting in match barrels any longer.
Also for what it's worth using pretend gunsmith terms like " barrel shadows" .
What you're looking at is likely cleaning damage.

 

[Tim s]

50 yards doesn't demonstrate barrel accuracy anywhere near as reliably as 100. At 50 a 37 with a Johnson barrel, a like new 52C, and a Ballard Rigby with a CC Johnson barrel that was set back for a modern chamber all shoot one hole groups. But at 100 none of them will hang with a 40 X Lilja hung by Gene Davis.

If so, kindly tell the class why the overwhelming majority of testing in the factory tunnels at both ELEY and Lapua is done at 50 yards/meters.