Marketing Hype in Ballistics - Hornady 4DOF Solver

[DocUSMCRetired]

You wanted to make the argument that this is a morality question, with you defining the terms and what is moral. That is simply not how the world works. If you want to provide information that your customers can freely use, there are consequences. One of those consequences is that others may use that information in ways that you do not approve. Therein lies your choice. I think the correct choice was made. The only anomaly is your complaining about the consequences. I might not use that information in a commercial context but that is solely my choice. If others decide to do so, they are on solid legal ground and there is not a damn thing you can do about it, regardless the logical absurdities and legal distortions you attempt.

As for your quote from Oxford: Again, we are not discussing an "idea", which in any case not protected under copyright, but a fact, also not protected. "Ideas" may be patented, not copyrighted. You repeatedly state that you have examples, case law, etc., but never cite any except one inapplicable Wikipedia article, the Betamax decision. When the United States Copyright Office says, "Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation, although it may protect the way these things are expressed.", why do you think they are wrong?

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html

BTW, we had a lot of old sayings in the Navy about Marines, but that is as irrelevant to the discussion as your citation. My home range is 103 at Camp Pendleton and I've shot with many fine Marines at Camp Pendleton ranges 103 and 117, Twentynine Palms and Quantico. USMC is an outstanding institution for many reasons, but it is just not relevant here.

Not getting baited back in to this. I said my peace, this isn't a legal forum. I did find a number of ways this could be protected, legally. All of which are an off topic discussion, and all of which go against the very reason I am here. All of which would only hurt the end user. I am here to support shooters. So as not to get dragged back down the rabbit hole, I am moving on. In a productive way, that supports those who are looking for help.

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

Wow! I hadn't heard anybody use the word "polemic" since college.

Doc,

I would suggest AB look into protecting their work thru use of the "Intellectual Property" aspects of patents. Harley Davidson has been able to keep companies from using most of the new things inside their Twin Cam engine to make parts and pieces and knockoffs.

Rich

 

[Ned Ludd]

I had this big drawn up reply, with links, quotes, case law with highlights, methods etc. But I just deleted it, because it doesn't benefit the reader. I need to get back on track, to what my purpose and goal here is. I am here to support, and help the shooter in anyway I can. Arguing over case law, which can go either way, and can be proven to support either side just doesn't do that. I am at fault for getting sucked down a rabbit hole. So here I go to shorten things up.

Their is an old saying in the Corps, it only takes one to ruin it for everyone. Could more robust precautions be taken, absolutely. Could things be changed to help push things to be more clear and in line, yes. But to what avail? It doesn't help the shooter. Which is my over all objective. So I will just leave it at, I really hope the lack of integrity, and theft by some, don't hurt the shooter in the long run. You can easily read about tons of cases, and ways to protect data. To say its impossible is a fallacy.

Getting back to the relative "term" in question, to openly say its not theft, or "stealing" is just not true. Hopefully the reader sees through the tactic of "it does not deserve an answer". Because the answer is simple. Does it fit the definition? That answer is yes. For reference: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/steal "An idea taken from another work:". And this is my original point. Where I live we have a term for this, we call them scroungers. But my personal opinion is just one of many opinions here. I am going to get back to, and try to stay on course with my main objective. Which is to support and help shooters where ever possible. This ended up being longer than I had hoped, but after deleting about 8 paragraphs, it is important to me. To get back on track.

I hate to say this, but YOU started the whole thing, beginning with publicly using the term "Marketing Hype" along with a competitor's name in the title of this thread. That was the first mistake, and as a longtime user and fan of AB products, I was very disappointed that you chose to do so. It was simply unnecessary. Michael Courtney chose a similar approach and if you haven't heard about that, I'm sure Bryan or Eric will tell you the story. The second mistake was to poke a Sleeping Gator with a stick. Very bad idea. For future AB-related posts in public shooting forums, I would offer words my former boss was very fond of using in similar situations, "Always take the high road".

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

I hate to say this, but YOU started the whole thing, beginning with publicly using the term "Marketing Hype" along with a competitor's name in the title of this thread. That was the first mistake, and as a longtime user and fan of AB products, I was very disappointed that you chose to do so. It was simply unnecessary. Michael Courtney chose a similar approach and if you haven't heard about that, I'm sure Bryan or Eric will tell you the story. The second mistake was to poke a Sleeping Gator with a stick. Very bad idea. For future AB-related posts in public shooting forums, I would offer words my former boss was very fond of using in similar situations, "Always take the high road".

Unfortunately it needed addressed. When you put out technically bad information, that can hurt the consumer, science and facts must be used to correct that. Otherwise you end up with thousands of people actually believing technically wrong information (Take a look at how big Non-Linear Dispersion still is). It then becomes "well so and so told me xyz is capable of a+b). Which becomes harder and harder to myth-bust. Getting scientifically sound information out is important.

 

[JRS]

If you are unhappy with the responses you have received to the thread you started, simply delete the entire thread. Perhaps you should consider the damage you might be causing to the AB name. If you have a problem with Hornady, express your opinions with Hornady. Trying to damage the credibility/reputation of another company to gain more interest in your own, usually doesn't work out well. Bryan has worked very hard to acquire the reputation he has, as has Hornady. Don't damage those reputations!

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

If you are unhappy with the responses you have received to the thread you started, simply delete the entire thread. Perhaps you should consider the damage you might be causing to the AB name. If you have a problem with Hornady, express your opinions with Hornady. Trying to damage the credibility/reputation of another company to gain more interest in your own, usually doesn't work out well. Bryan has worked very hard to acquire the reputation he has, as has Hornady. Don't damage those reputations!

You can't make everyone in the world happy, but the truth needs to be seen. If someone's goal was to troll the to point of trying to get a post removed. Well I can't help that. But I am certainly not going to delete a thread simply because someone doesn't like the truth. This is about making sure scientifically sound information is used to correct the age old marketing twisting of words/facts.

Like the original article says "Marketing Hype in Ballistics". It is always important for the audience to understand when they are being fed a twist by a salesman. So they understand the truth behind the science.

 

[Grimstod]

You can't make everyone in the world happy, but the truth needs to be seen. If someone's goal was to troll the to point of trying to get a post removed. Well I can't help that. But I am certainly not going to delete a thread simply because someone doesn't like the truth. This is about making sure scientifically sound information is used to correct the age old marketing twisting of words/facts.

Like the original article says "Marketing Hype in Ballistics". It is always important for the audience to understand when they are being fed a twist by a salesman. So they understand the truth behind the science.

I like your thinking Bian(I am assuming). I to am an admin on some other pages and even though people say things I disagree with I do not delete them.
By the way great books you guys make. I drink every word from them.

 

[calgarycanada]

Sorry don't wanna use harsh words but when everyone around you seem wrong, maybe it's not them. Just saying!

 

[JRS]

Sorry don't wanna use harsh words but when everyone around you seem wrong, maybe it's not them. Just saying!

They have damaged their reputation and business.