Mandrel or not?

[William Vogel]

I used to use a mandrel die after the sizing die. I rethought the process and adjusted my bushing size and omitted the step of mandrel sizing the neck and I haven’t seen any difference in accuracy by skipping the mandrel step of brass prep. This is for my bolt action rifles.

For my AR rifles I also use the same process and my sizing die doesn’t have an expander. I just use a Redding bushing die. I use a brass catcher on the rifle and maybe it keeps the necks from being dented. I don’t like picking up brass.

 

[47WillysGuy]

If your not jamming a bullet 0.006-0.008 thousands and then firing a round that is with 0.003-0.004 thousands out and with say 0.020 thousands jump, that bullet hits one side of the lands or then other and careening down the barrel tube from one side to the other. Existing a path somewhere other than the X ring.

Which:
-Could resulting in high or low nine or maybe a right to left nine or eight.
-Plus the amount of copper that is deposited by that bullet not hitting the lands squarely.

My dilemma!

 

[6BRA]

If your not jamming a bullet 0.006-0.008 thousands and then firing a round that is with 0.003-0.004 thousands out and with say 0.020 thousands jump, that bullet hits one side of the lands or then other and careening down the barrel tube from one side to the other. Existing a path somewhere other than the X ring.

Which:
-Could resulting in high or low nine or maybe a right to left nine or eight.
-Plus the amount of copper that is deposited by that bullet not hitting the lands squarely.

My dilemma!

Brings me back to a.post that I posted about 2 years ago, talking about bushing dies and uneven brass flow. Brass is alive. Not going there this time. My last post on this.

 

[shoot4fun]

There are 9,341 ways to skin a cat . When it comes to "accurate" ammo , their is no such thing as "perfect" . Just what works consistently , with a degree of accuracy !
As a TR Shooter who has won a little , and shot some 200's , I use a Bushing Die , followed by a Expander , after deburring the inside / outside of the neck . Run-out is .001 - .0015 ......

THIS-THIS-THIS!!!!!!!!!!!
I had one "friend" that constantly asked me how I did my reloading for matches but turned out he was asking at least 3-4 other guys the same questions. Of course he got different answers and, of course, he confused all the answers. One day he calls and begins a conversation with "I know you said blah-blah" when that wasn't what I said and then (before I could interject) "but so & so said do it this way".
My answer was clear and short. "DO IT THE WAY SO & SO SAID!" There has been no contact with this "friend" since mid October.
You MUST find out how things work for YOU! Keep notes on what steps and when and neck tension, etc.
GO shoot and see how that batch performs. ALSO, realize that some days are better than others. I didn't start shooting better with my "best" reloads UNTIL I learned to shoot in different conditions!

 

[M-61]

I have never checked bullet run out. Well I guess I have if you call rolling the cartridge across the table to see if the bullet is wobbling, I have!!

Me too.
Doesn’t the freebore and the leade assist in ensuring the bullet engages the rifling squarely?

 

[dusterdave173]

I did an extensive test last month on my 223 loads--I have Redding FL die--I tested with the expander ball, without the ball then mandrel. with the ball and then mandrel--every combo
Turns out that with the expander ball then a mandrel produced the best groups by a little --then to further the test I went Up in size on the mandrel for less tension--surprise! Going from 222 mandrel to a 223 worked! Tighter groups, better ES and SD and a big improvement on seating "feel" one or two out of 50 that were tighter feeling and tossed in the fouler pile the rest dead nuts even feeling
I went with the targets info
I know many say No ball and overworking brass etc but.......
I don't know...this is a crazy science--seems like there are dozens of ways to get to the same results
My rifle is now shooting 3 loads better than it ever has--I am going with it this season and not looking back
Things improved once I started annealing, then improved with mandrel--I would like to think of getting a honed neck die from Forster but at this point I don't need it --bullets are landing where I want them to

I did start out with busing die and mandrel for my 6BR--it works like magic so not changing a thing there
Time to get off the loading room MerryGoRound and get to the range--I made decisions on loads, loaded hundreds of rounds and am staying out of the loading room for a while.

 

[L.Sherm]

I'm no smith but if a chamber is cut true to the throat and bore of the barrel then a bullet jammed or not jammed its gonna engage the rifling square, just my thought.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

I thought it was pretty well decided, a bit of runout doesn’t mean anything. And a mandrel rounds out the ID of the case so that OD that you’re turning is irrelevant?

And if there’s plenty of neck clearance in your chamber, isn’t the bullet already headed down the barrel before uneven neck thickness makes a difference ?

 

[6BRA]

Is the end of the case neck the 1st crown? If neck walls don't hit chamber evenly. Does this effect the 1st crown? Release of bullet? Neck turning has been around for years. Inside of neck and outside of neck may play different roles. If you think firing will iron it out, your bbl may be shot out by the time that happens. Opinions..are like ...I know. Jmo

 

[Link]

My thought - if your die sizes the neck square , what a mandrel will do is size the ID - adjusting neck tension. If you have a donut it will push it to the outside. ?

 

[L.Sherm]

My thought - if your die sizes the neck square , what a mandrel will do is size the ID - adjusting neck tension. If you have a donut it will push it to the outside. ?

I've taken pin guages and slide them down the neck after running a mandrel through the neck and the pin guage still stops at the nk- shoulder junction theres still a pinch point.

 

[Bob3700]

The pin is stopping at the donut.

 

[JFrank]

I am somewhat competitive at midrange Benchrest and want to dabble in long range. I shoot BR, BRA and Dasher. Most recently I have been using Harrells sizer dies, mandrels and arbor seaters. I have been doing about a 50% neck cleanup. Only using Lapua brass and anneal every firing. Getting a new rifle and searching for dies. Looking at SAC sizing die. Called SAC today. The fellow I spoke with was very informative but was telling me a lot of stuff that I’m sure was correct, but confused me somewhat. I felt like I was taking up too much of his time. He told me I shouldn’t be turning necks at all( all my rifles are .272). I think he said I would be better off not using a mandrel anyway.
I want to build the straightest ammo possible just to give me more confidence if nothing else. I would appreciate input from someone in the know about whether a mandrel helps or hurts building accurate ammo. Fixing to start with new brass shortly. Thank you.

Wilson and Harrell’s makes some of the best dies available for (our ) BR application.

Wilson Bushing Type Full Length Sizing Die 6 BR Norma / Rem | Bruno Shooters Supply

www.brunoshooters.com

 

[L.Sherm]

The pin is stopping at the donut.

Yes, try it sometime.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

I don’t turn necks, I use a bushing, I use lock ease inside the neck before I use a mandrel, my arbor press does not have a pressure gauge I anneal when I’m in the mood and I’m happy with the result on paper out to 1K. End of story

 

[Maximus1840]

Yes, try it sometime.

So, the mandrel pushing the donut to the outside of the case is false? If it is false, then you'd be better off reaming the case ID to remove the donut? I have been reloading for a long time and have yet to ream the case ID or turn the case OD but have been thinking I may want to. I must admit it's confusing. It seems the best way to go is to stop using bushing dies.

 

[SeabeeKen]

“Run out” is overrated!

Have not checked it in years.

While I agree, I'll say there is a noticeable difference between .002 and .010 runout on target. I learned this due to a redding die that caused .010 runout. Redding got it down to .002 and the difference was easily apparent. I neck turn because my chamber requires it and I dont use a mandrel in such cases because I set neck tension via bushing and the necks are the same thickness all around and there is nothing to push outward. YMMV

 

[drop_point]

if you're seating the bullet above the donut then it really doesn't affect much.

 

[drop_point]

While I agree, I'll say there is a noticeable difference between .002 and .010 runout on target. I learned this due to a redding die that caused .010 runout. Redding got it down to .002 and the difference was easily apparent. I neck turn because my chamber requires it and I dont use a mandrel in such cases because I set neck tension via bushing and the necks are the same thickness all around and there is nothing to push outward. YMMV

I have a hunting rifle that would shoot great with new brass that had been chamfered/deburred/expanded with a mandrel. Once it was reloaded it wouldn't shoot at all and would put up 3" groups.

I decided to break out the old runout gauge after being stumped. Sized brass would have close to ten thou of wobble and it would be even worse on a loaded round. I wasn't doing anything with sizing any different than I normally did. Turns out, I tried a new FL die and it started shooting my loads just fine and measured runout was 0.003" or less. Good enough.

I think runout usually doesn't matter on a target rifle or a rifle with a good chamber design, but on hunting rifles and older chamber designs it does seem to matter if it is an egregious amount of runout.

 

[AlNyhus]

I thought it was pretty well decided, a bit of runout doesn’t mean anything. And a mandrel rounds out the ID of the case so that OD that you’re turning is irrelevant?

Who "...decided" that?