Loose bullets in 6ppc cases

[artbosco]

Outdoorsmen, yes I have the book and have read it once, i need to reread portions.The 2.145" was my initial overall length I was going to use. I decreased it to 2.142" to reduce the risk of getting a bullet stuck in the chamber in case I have to eject a round without firing it. The OAL listed above is the overall length of the cartridge and not the Comparator length.

Ed, Use the Ogive to case base, as your measurement guide. This is not a hunting cartridge housed in a magazine. The 6PPC is in a realm of it's own. It likes to be jammed. Most of us who shoot it are accustomed to it's idiosyncrasies and those of N-133, and as such, use .003" to .004" of neck tension which most of the time precludes leaving a bullet in the barrel.

However, to be on the safe side, it's normal to clear the chamber by firing the round, then to end up with a bullet in the barrel and powder in the chamber, especially during a match.

Seating depth is a fine tuning adjustment used for accuracy enhancement, it shouldn't be adjusted over concerns of leaving a bullet in the barrel. If in doubt, fire the round. Don't mess with the tune.

 

[BoydAllen]

Markhor,
Sorry I didn't respond on the sized neck OD post. The results look OK. When you used a mic to measure the OD of the neck with a bullet in it did you take care to only measure the sized portion of the neck... at the mouth? What I am trying to get at here is positive verification of neck thickness. When the pressure ring is below the sized part of the neck, neck tension is much less than if it falls within the sized portion. Humor me and do an experiment. Short seat a bullet so that the heel falls well within the sized part of the neck and try and push the bullet deeper. Let us know what you find. I think that the Harrell's die will completely solve your problem, because the bushing cavity is as low as it can be and leave the part of the die that sizes the shoulder intact.
Boyd

 

[Markhor]

Boyd, I just did as you asked, seated short the bullet is rock solid in the case. My goal now is to get a few cases prepped so I can send them off to Harrel for the FL die.

Thanks for all your help.
Ed

 

[BoydAllen]

When you order the die, tell Lynwood that I said hi.

 

[Frankr]

Boyd, I took measurements of the sized cases using a .264, .263 & .262 bushings. The results are as following. I also cleaned a case neck with some steel wool and sized it to see where I saw the bushing marks. The marks were about half way down the neck. I also tried a .68gr ultra bullet, it did the same thing. All measurements were taken with a mic using light pressure.

.264 bushing
Unsized the OD was .266 for all three cases

After sizing

Top of neck: .264
Middle: .266
Bottom: .271

.263 bushing

Top: .263
M: .266
B: 267

.262 bushing

Top: .262
M: .266
B:.267

I was thinking of just loading them with a fire forming charge of 26gr of N133 at an Oal of 1.142".
This way even if the rifling pushes the bullet into the case a bit when I close the bolt, I won't create too much pressure.Once I shoot them at least 2 more times, I will send some of the cases to Harrel for the FL die. Please let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Ed

.

Markhor first of all i'm just trying to understand, what you are saying and doing cant' be.
if your chamber is .268 neck dia. and your brass neck's are .011 to .012 thick there is no way you are necking them with a .262 bushing and if you did no way you seat a bullet in them..
YOU NEED TO MIC your case neck thickness with a ball/tube mic..
my case necks are .011 thick...when i neck them with a .265 bushing and seat a bullet you can not move it.
AND you only get two measurements with a loaded round....mine are the part of the neck that is sized mic's .265 the part of the neck that is not sized is .268.

someone help...boyd..? where i'm i wrong..?

 

[BoydAllen]

He could have a couple of problems. In an earlier post, I essentially asked if he was sure that the unsized portion of his necks had not accidentally influenced his measurement of the neck diameter of a loaded round. I would still like to know the answer to my question, and the method by which neck thickness was determined. This is not to find fault, but, working from a distance, I need to get a better feel for what is going on.

 

[Frankr]

it just seem wrong.. Im telling you a .268 neck chamber.. neck thinkness .011+.011+.243=.265 so .266 they would have to be .0115 .. so you are saying that .008 bullet grip wont would a bullet..
.002 will hold a bullet..i like a little more like .003 or .004..
there is no way he is necking them down .008 and not holding a bullet..i'm thinking if i run one of my cases in a .262 bushing it might smash the neck or shoulder..i'm not going to try it.. but if i did get it necked .008 im sure i would have a hard time getting a bullet in it and from experience that might smash the shoulder. maybe not but would be alot of grip.. His cases neck's have to be .0085..?

 

[M700]

Markhor, quit using those doggone bullets for the .223 AR-15!

Without being there and taking some measurements myself - frankly I dunno...

 

[bglenn]

By the measurments Markhor published only the very end of the case neck is being sized, is the way it looks to me.

Glenn

 

[Markhor]

Gentalmen, as Glen stated for some reason my Wilson neck die is sizing only the tip of the neck. If I seat them short as Boyd asked me to do, the bullets are solid. As soon as I begin seating them deeper, the bullets start seating loose and can be pushed in with finger pressure. As far as the measurements that I took, they were taken of the cases without a bullet seated. Since I was trying to see if the necks were getting sized at all. As the measurements show, they were getting sized correctly only at the tip of the neck.

One of the revelations I had last night was that maybe I bumped the shoulder back too far when I sized them in the body die, which in turn is preventing the neck from going all the way into the bushing.

I have been reloading for the past 30+ years and thought I new a little about reloading but PPC is kicking my butt.

Ed

 

[BoydAllen]

Ed,
If the bottom of the case ends up even with the bottom of the Wilson neck die, the shoulder location will not have any effect on how far the neck goes into the bushing. You are pushing the case into the die all the way aren't you? How are you pushing the case in and out of the die... an arbor press?

Another thing, the Harrell's die will come with a handy little brass gauge that is used to measure shoulder bump. Use it when you get it, and make sure that you deprime the fired case that you use for a reference before taking the measurement. I prefer mine to any other tool or method.
Boyd

 

[Markhor]

Thanks Boyd, yes I am using an Arbor press the case is completely flush.
I went to the range this morning and completed my second firing of the cases successfully. The accuracy was good as well. I will try and shoot them a third time tommorw and then ship three or four cases to Harrels for the FL die.

Ed

 

[BoydAllen]

If they are stout loads, a couple of cases should be fine. I have shot all the 133 that I can possibly get into a 6PPC case, compressed, behind anything from 68 grains down, and not had Lapua primer pockets loosen. I am not recommending this to anyone, just reporting my own foolishness.

 

[markr]

If they are stout loads, a couple of cases should be fine. I have shot all the 133 that I can possibly get into a 6PPC case, compressed, behind anything from 68 grains down, and not had Lapua primer pockets loosen. I am not recommending this to anyone, just reporting my own foolishness.

That sounds like the Allie Euber method...LOL
My 6PPC likes everything it will hold of IMR 8208 And a Bruno's 00 for 3500 FPS. Once again this is not a recommended load to anyone, just my foolishness.

 

[dhighlan]

Boyd, I just spoke with one of the bullet techs at Berger. None of their bullets, including the Target 68 grain flat base, have a pressure ring. The 68 grain FB measures a straight .2430" at the base.

Scroll down this page: http://www.bergerbullets.com/Products/Target%20Bullets.html

He said they don't mess with pressure rings on any of their bullets. When you don't have to deal in four places [ie. 5/10,000ths] it probably keeps production costs way down.

Boyd/Outdoorsman

I would sure like to hear your thoughts about this as I have measured at least 1000 68gr, 65gr, and 62 Berger's. I sure know that the 68gr match I have measured came to .2435 and I had a problem in a .262 neck with being sightly tight so I had to turn to .080 to get the clearance I wanted. These were not something from years past but rather newer lots.

Not here to make an argument rather what has been your experiences if indeed you have used these bullets in past.

Thanks Doug

 

[BoydAllen]

On shoot, and I was hoping to get into a really good argument. I guess that I will have to make due with a more civilized discussion.

I assume that the 8 needed to be one place over, and what you meant was that you turned your necks to .008. As far as I am concerned, that is fine. You have no problem. (Recently, I have re-turned quite a few to .0001 thinner than yours.)

You mentioned the diameter of bullets. I assume that you are measuring with a micrometer and not a caliper that is good to .0005. A mic. that measures to .0001 it the proper tool (but you probably already know that).

My experience with Bergers is that having traditional single radius ogives, that they seem to work well, into the rifling, with marks that are shorter than wide, half to one third.

Frankly, I think that shooters may be attracted to bullets that are in short supply and hard to get, and because Bergers are not, they lack the requisite air of mystery. Because they are easy to get, and shoot just fine, I have started a couple of friends on their 68s with the result that they were both able to shoot groups in the teens (good shooters with very good equipment) rather quickly. I also started them with H322, but that is another story.
Boyd

 

[dhighlan]

Thanks Boyd, yes .008 is the size I meant to reference. Yes, I do use a mic and was glad to read in your other post that I am not the only to think this way.

Since, in Indiana competition is non existant but I love shooting tiny holes and have a private 100-400 yd range, I do shoot lot. Started teaching my son a few years ago and wanted him to have confidence it wasn't his equipment but rather something he missed.
Now at 12 he shoots in the .2's (Older Wichita/Krieger barrel 6ppc) when conditions are perfect and has some .8 @ 300 (6br)(30br)
So, in essence Bergers and H322 works for our purposes quite well. I run N133 but can get 322, Varget, and 4198 locally cheap.

Again not trying to Hi jack thread just confused on how Berger can say this as this is not the empirical data I have collected.

 

[bozo699]

I cannot control myself another minute, I have not had anything to contribute so I haven't posted but have been following this thread since the beginning and I just have to say this has been a very informative thread. I have been following most anything to do with 6ppc and have learned a lot already just from this thread alone, thanks Boyd, Outdoorsman and others. Ed I hope your problem is solved soon.
Wayne.

 

[AlNyhus]

I just spoke this morning with Phil, a different Bullet Tech who answers technical questions and his response was No. No pressure ring. It's as if they're not familiar with the term.

I measured the Berger 68's I have on hand. These are recent production (mid 2011).

Shank diameter - .2430
Pressure ring dia- .2432

Good shootin'. -Al

 

[artbosco]

Now I know why I use Bart Sauder's 68 grain flat base Ultra's exclusively ... and why others might want to try them too. I strongly recommend a custom made bullet that's a proven winner, with consistent dimensions. In this case .2435".

No response to my email, as of yet, from either Walt Berger or Brian Litz.