Loose bullets in 6ppc cases

[Markhor]

I ran into a new issue in trying to load my 6ppc fire formed cases. I deprimed using the Wison neck die with a .264 bushing ( I have a .268 neck) I loaded a 68gr Berger. The seated bullet came out loose, I could press it in with finger pressure. I thought, let me try a tighter bushing. I tried a .263 bushing, the bullet was still loose. I went with a .262 bushing, still loose. I finally tried a .261 bushing, guess what, I could still push the bullet in with my fingers. The outside diameter of the loaded round is .266 measured with a mic. I am totally baffled!!! What is going on??

Boyd & Outdoorsman any thoughts?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Belton45]

Are you sure the bushing is sizing the neck? Another words is the die coming far enough down on the case to reach the neck.

 

[artbosco]

I ran into a new issue in trying to load my 6ppc fire formed cases. I deprimed using the Wilson neck die with a .264 bushing ( I have a .268 neck) I loaded a 68gr Berger. The seated bullet came out loose, I could press it in with finger pressure. I thought, let me try a tighter bushing. I tried a .263 bushing, the bullet was still loose. I went with a .262 bushing, still loose. I finally tried a .261 bushing, guess what, I could still push the bullet in with my fingers. The outside diameter of the loaded round is .266 measured with a mic. I am totally baffled!!! What is going on?? Boyd & Outdoorsman any thoughts?

Ed, I'm baffled too. Moreover, since I never use a neck sizing die, all I can do is recommend you quickly acquire a Full Length bushing die from Harrell's. I've never had a problem with one of their dies. Never. Ever.

The entire case dimension, with desired neck tension, comes out perfect, over and over, day in and day out, with one movement downward, of your press handle.

Call Lynwood first for instructions, but here's what you need: http://harrellsprec.com/index.php?crn=207&rn=384&action=show_detail

It will serve you well for many years, and reduce frustration. Keep it simple!

P.S. With the 6PPC, you're going to be challenged enough keeping it in tune with N-133. Don't add to the challenge, with anything less than full length sizing. The 6PPC is not a forgiving cartridge when it comes to accuracy. And accuracy is not enhanced with half measures when sizing.

 

[BoydAllen]

What is the thickness of your necks, and how have you determined it? Try a couple of things for me. By measuring the od of a sized neck in various places along its length, determine how far down the neck you are sizing. Also, tell me how what the ODs of sized necks are for using various bushings. After you have done all that, post the information. Are you inserting the case into the neck die till the base of the case is flush with the end of the die?
Boyd

 

[Markhor]

Boyd, I will get a Harrel FL die ASAP. When the case neck is being squeezed by the bushing, I can feel it as I lower the arm of my Arbor press. When I begin seating the bullet on the Wilson micro seating die, I feel a bit of tension as the bullet first goes in the neck but then it goes in the rest of the way very easily. I have a feeling, that the die is just squeezing the mouth of the case but the rest of the neck remains loose. When I look at the sizing die from the bottom, the case is completely flush with the die mouth. My oal is 2.145". I will get the other measurements later this afternoon and post them. The only other things that I have done to the case after Fire Forming is to size them in the Redding #2 ppc body die and trim them on my Giraud trimmer.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[BoydAllen]

Just make sure that the cases that you send to determine which die Harrell's will send you have been fired till tight. When loading them just neck size, so that you get a good image of the body of your chamber. What you are feeling as you seat is the pressure ring at the base of the bullet. it is larger (a few ten thousanths) than the shank of the bullet, and acts as an expander, and when it passes the sized part of the neck resistance decreases. I am surprised that your Wilson die does not size far enough down the case. They can change that, but there isn't much point, since you will have little use for it, once you get the Harrell's die. What bullet are you using?

 

[Markhor]

Thanks Boyd, I will be sending him cases that came with the rifle. I am using the Berger 68gr FB.

Ed

 

[artbosco]

Thanks Boyd, I will be sending him cases that came with the rifle. I am using the Berger 68gr FB. Ed

Markhor, Please don't do that, you don't know old or how work-hardened they've become, or how many times they were fired.

Send Harrell's FRESH brass that YOU have fired in the rifled, the number of times, Harrell's asks for. It's two or three times as I recall. That's why I recommended you speak to Lynwood.

 

[artbosco]

Boyd, I just spoke with one of the bullet techs at Berger. None of their bullets, including the Target 68 grain flat base, have a pressure ring. The 68 grain FB measures a straight .2430" at the base.

Scroll down this page: http://www.bergerbullets.com/Products/Target%20Bullets.html

He said they don't mess with pressure rings on any of their bullets. When you don't have to deal in four places [ie. 5/10,000ths] it probably keeps production costs way down.

 

[Markhor]

Thanks Outdoorsman, I will hold off untill I have the brass prepped.

Ed

 

[BoydAllen]

As to Berger's pressure rings on their short range benchrest, flat base, 6mm bullets, there is no need to call anyone if you have a 1" mic. that reads to .0001 it is easy to determine that they are there, and how big they are. Who did you talk to at Berger.

 

[artbosco]

Who did you talk to at Berger.

One of Berger's Bullet Techs who answers Technical questions.

I repeated my question several times to make sure he understood what I was asking. He repeated the question back to me, to confirm he understood what I was looking for.

 

[BoydAllen]

I was not questioning your reporting, or that he said it, but I have Berger bullets in hand, and the tool and skill to accurately measure them. I have measured bullets that they made going back a number of years. Evidently one of their employees that has been tasked with answering customers' questions, has not spent much time with a micrometer, measuring their bullets.

 

[Frankr]

Markhor you have something wrong with your case neck's i suspect, I was useing a .269 neck 6BR ..
I switched to a .268 neck in my new chamber.. But i was still useing the same redding comp neck die with the same bushing in it and it works, holds the bullets,you can not move them..but i think they shoot better with alittle more neck tension so i have been going to take the die apart and see what bushing was in it so i could order one 1thous smaller, after reading your post, i just ran in and took it apart,,I been using a .265 bushing with a .268 neck and have good bullet grip, i want to go .001 tighter to see if it shoots better. as the .269 shot very well with the .265 bushing... so i have a .268 neck and I'm using .265 bushing and you can not push or pull a bullet from my cases...my case necks are .011-.0113 and my loaded round measures .265 with a regular bullet and .2655 with a custom bullet with pressure ring..so if your .264 bushing wont hold a bullet. you need to mic the case necks and if they are .011 then you are not sizing them some how..

I really suspect when this shakes out some one gave you cases for a .262 neck and not a .268 neck.
i think a .261 bushing would crush one of my cases.

 

[Markhor]

Boyd, I took measurements of the sized cases using a .264, .263 & .262 bushings. The results are as following. I also cleaned a case neck with some steel wool and sized it to see where I saw the bushing marks. The marks were about half way down the neck. I also tried a .68gr ultra bullet, it did the same thing. All measurements were taken with a mic using light pressure.

.264 bushing
Unsized the OD was .266 for all three cases

After sizing

Top of neck: .264
Middle: .266
Bottom: .271

.263 bushing

Top: .263
M: .266
B: 267

.262 bushing

Top: .262
M: .266
B:.267

I was thinking of just loading them with a fire forming charge of 26gr of N133 at an Oal of 1.142".
This way even if the rifling pushes the bullet into the case a bit when I close the bolt, I won't create too much pressure.Once I shoot them at least 2 more times, I will send some of the cases to Harrel for the FL die. Please let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Ed

.

 

[hedditch]

Can you borrow someone else's die and see if you experience the same problem?

 

[artbosco]

I was not questioning your reporting, or that he said it, but I have Berger bullets in hand, and the tool and skill to accurately measure them. I have measured bullets that they made going back a number of years. Evidently one of their employees that has been tasked with answering customers' questions, has not spent much time with a micrometer, measuring their bullets.

Boyd, I just spoke this morning with Phil, a different Bullet Tech who answers technical questions and his response was No. No pressure ring. It's as if they're not familiar with the term.

To carry this query a little further and into the bowels of the company, I sent an email to Walt Berger and one to Brian Litz, the Chief Ballistician. The response should be interesting, assuming I get one.

 

[artbosco]

I was thinking of just loading them with a fire forming charge of 26gr of N133 at an Oal of 1.142".

Much earlier you mentioned an OAL of 2.145" and now 1.142"? Where are these numbers coming from and what do they represent to you?

Usually, with the 6PPC, depending on the chamber length, cases are trimmed to 1.490" and if any measuring is done, it's referenced from the Ogive, not the tip of the bullet to the base of the case. That's why I ask.

Do you have a copy of Tony Boyer's new book, The Book of Rifle Accuracy? It's the bible/definitive guide to the 6PPC and strongly recommended. Everything you want to know, and more, is in there.

 

[Belton45]

The Tony Boyer book helped me understand quite abit. I have even reread quite a few chapters in it so far. Lots of info in it.

 

[Markhor]

Outdoorsmen, yes I have the book and have read it once, i need to reread portions.The 2.145" was my initial overall length I was going to use. I decreased it to 2.142" to reduce the risk of getting a bullet stuck in the chamber in case I have to eject a round without firing it. The OAL listed above is the overall length of the cartridge and not the Comparator length.

Thanks,
Ed