lomg range groundhog guns
- Thread starter maddysdad
- Start date
potatoe
Silver $$ Contributor
I was refering to the the 115 Dtacs not the discontinued others. I said that LR varmint bullets and by that I mean a bullet completely designed and designated for shooting varmints , I'm unaware of a varmint bullet with a greater than .4 BC than the 87 V-max. My point was that there are not many LR varmint bullet choices for groundhogs and many people seem to think that a good PD bullet will work on an old hog and I don not agree at all.
It seems to get lost in the computer/forum talk what a person is really trying to point out, I'm not saying any of these bullets can't kill groundhogs sometimes at whatever yardage. I'm talking about good, very consistent kills even with mediocre hits. I know i've seen many groundhogs crawl away from what I thought should have been a DRT hit. A target bullet will not give you DRT hits on a gut shot at 400+ yards, they will go through them and you can watch them crawl away to their hole (count it or not is up to you) I count hogs I can hold up with my hand. I want from a long range groundhog bullet is a good expansion, high BC and Ft. pnds of energy to get hogs consistently at long range. A target bullet on a groundhog will not produce good consistent DRT results, they just won't.
It seems to get lost in the computer/forum talk what a person is really trying to point out, I'm not saying any of these bullets can't kill groundhogs sometimes at whatever yardage. I'm talking about good, very consistent kills even with mediocre hits. I know i've seen many groundhogs crawl away from what I thought should have been a DRT hit. A target bullet will not give you DRT hits on a gut shot at 400+ yards, they will go through them and you can watch them crawl away to their hole (count it or not is up to you) I count hogs I can hold up with my hand. I want from a long range groundhog bullet is a good expansion, high BC and Ft. pnds of energy to get hogs consistently at long range. A target bullet on a groundhog will not produce good consistent DRT results, they just won't.
Re: long range groundhog guns
Maddysdad -
Howdy, again !
I mentioned in your other related post....
" For enhanced lethality on groundhogs, use a varmint calibre/cartridge/rifle combination that can deliver at least 450 ft lbs of energy @ the desired target distance. "
For longer ranges, this suggests a gun shot from a stationary position; that covers a wide area of regard.
I call these " place guns " , as they are shot from a set place; using things like rifle rests, ( sand ) bags, bi-pods; et al.
Place guns have a tendency to be heavy/heavier-barreled guns, as portability is not a major concern ( vs something like a " walking varminter " ).
This can result in a gun constructed w/o having any preconceived notion on upper weight limit..... in those instances where a dual-use gun is
not also expected to qualify for a specific weight class @ various target shoots.
A generous ( or even unrestricted ) upper wt limit paves the way for use of heavy/heavier barrels.
When these weight margins are exploited, longer barrel lengths can more-readily be accomodated. And of course, one major benefit of longer barrel lengths is that they can help shift the gun's " expansion ratio " towards increased levels of internal ballistics " efficiency ".
Prior to the build, one should decide for one's own self whether an " expansion ratio " under consideration might have become unfavorable;
with respect to things like achievable muzzle velocities and barrel life.
An informed choice on barrel twist rate, helps in keeping the gun amenable to use of a sensible range of bullet weights. Perhaps the preferred bullet
will not always be available for use. For the longer ranges, use of a boat tail bullet helps w/ retained energy, and flatness of the trajectory.
With regards,
357Mag
Maddysdad -
Howdy, again !
I mentioned in your other related post....
" For enhanced lethality on groundhogs, use a varmint calibre/cartridge/rifle combination that can deliver at least 450 ft lbs of energy @ the desired target distance. "
For longer ranges, this suggests a gun shot from a stationary position; that covers a wide area of regard.
I call these " place guns " , as they are shot from a set place; using things like rifle rests, ( sand ) bags, bi-pods; et al.
Place guns have a tendency to be heavy/heavier-barreled guns, as portability is not a major concern ( vs something like a " walking varminter " ).
This can result in a gun constructed w/o having any preconceived notion on upper weight limit..... in those instances where a dual-use gun is
not also expected to qualify for a specific weight class @ various target shoots.
A generous ( or even unrestricted ) upper wt limit paves the way for use of heavy/heavier barrels.
When these weight margins are exploited, longer barrel lengths can more-readily be accomodated. And of course, one major benefit of longer barrel lengths is that they can help shift the gun's " expansion ratio " towards increased levels of internal ballistics " efficiency ".
Prior to the build, one should decide for one's own self whether an " expansion ratio " under consideration might have become unfavorable;
with respect to things like achievable muzzle velocities and barrel life.
An informed choice on barrel twist rate, helps in keeping the gun amenable to use of a sensible range of bullet weights. Perhaps the preferred bullet
will not always be available for use. For the longer ranges, use of a boat tail bullet helps w/ retained energy, and flatness of the trajectory.
With regards,
357Mag
6AI and 75 VMax or .25-06 and 75 VMax if barrel life doesn`t bother you. The 6AI is almost effortless. The .25-06 seems to require more diligence on the hold maybe because of increased muzzle blast.
If barrel life is a problem then use a slower combo and learn to hold higher and read the wind at long range.
Bill
If barrel life is a problem then use a slower combo and learn to hold higher and read the wind at long range.
Bill
Don't want to sidetrack anyone on the OP's Question. But does anyone think that a 6.5x284 is a worthwhile addition to a long range varmint hunters arsenal. Say for 600 yds Plus. The first question had a 600 yd cutoff
Thanks
Thanks
AckleymanII
Gold $$ Contributor
Big difference in Varmint bullets and target bullets on chucks. 105 A max may work or not work, depending on muzzle velocity, accuracy a given.
Back in the 80's we shot many hundreds of chucks with a 6mm Rem with the 85g Sierra BTHP out to 550 yds and it did a great job on chucks, killing them.
Now, they have toughened up the Sierra 85g BTHP and it leans more toward a deer bullet.
One thing that most people forget that is for chucks you are probably only get one shot and one shot only. Chuck hunting is NOT p. dog hunting where you get to sight in on the animals and their respective buddies.
Chucks are a lot harder to kill on the other side of 450 yards also as a bullet is taking a nose dive.
A 6 AI with a 28" 14 twist will shoot a 70g pill at 4000-4100 and will do high 3900's and never full length size a case, do the ballistic's table on drop and wind drift. Also, the 70g Sierra Blitz king and 70g NOsler ballistic tip just kills heck out of chucks. Barrel life with the 6 AI that starts off at zero freebore is long life compared to a barrel that starts off with .100 of freebore. Win 760 in a 6 AI with the 70's is a marriage made in heaven.
Remember that chuck hunters love to see the chucks fly'en!!! They are not to interested in putting a hole in one and watch it hobble off down the hole.
Most bullets made off of J4 jackets are not worth a darn for live varmints if they have a .070 meplat, only speed will make them work well.
I want to see chucks fly'en in the air for my $ and time spent. A caliber/bullet that just knocks them just bores the heck out of me.
If you want to enjoy shooting chucks, design your rig around a good varmint bullet, not a deer bullet or a target bullet.
If you can get a good lot of 75g V max in 243 caliber, just imagine shooting them at 3900 fps, you will blow a chuck up like a paint ball hitting a brick wall. A friend had a 6 Ai and shot the 75g V max at 3800 and launched chucks 60 feet with them. Some one picked up the You tube video of his and started marketing the shot as "Taliban head shot with 50 Caliber".
Rifle designs do not have to be expensive to shoot chucks, just a good barrel, good reamer, and good gunsmith that will take his time aligning the bore with the chamber and you will be able to shoot the tops of their heads off at 300 yards.
Back in the 80's we shot many hundreds of chucks with a 6mm Rem with the 85g Sierra BTHP out to 550 yds and it did a great job on chucks, killing them.
Now, they have toughened up the Sierra 85g BTHP and it leans more toward a deer bullet.
One thing that most people forget that is for chucks you are probably only get one shot and one shot only. Chuck hunting is NOT p. dog hunting where you get to sight in on the animals and their respective buddies.
Chucks are a lot harder to kill on the other side of 450 yards also as a bullet is taking a nose dive.
A 6 AI with a 28" 14 twist will shoot a 70g pill at 4000-4100 and will do high 3900's and never full length size a case, do the ballistic's table on drop and wind drift. Also, the 70g Sierra Blitz king and 70g NOsler ballistic tip just kills heck out of chucks. Barrel life with the 6 AI that starts off at zero freebore is long life compared to a barrel that starts off with .100 of freebore. Win 760 in a 6 AI with the 70's is a marriage made in heaven.
Remember that chuck hunters love to see the chucks fly'en!!! They are not to interested in putting a hole in one and watch it hobble off down the hole.
Most bullets made off of J4 jackets are not worth a darn for live varmints if they have a .070 meplat, only speed will make them work well.
I want to see chucks fly'en in the air for my $ and time spent. A caliber/bullet that just knocks them just bores the heck out of me.
If you want to enjoy shooting chucks, design your rig around a good varmint bullet, not a deer bullet or a target bullet.
If you can get a good lot of 75g V max in 243 caliber, just imagine shooting them at 3900 fps, you will blow a chuck up like a paint ball hitting a brick wall. A friend had a 6 Ai and shot the 75g V max at 3800 and launched chucks 60 feet with them. Some one picked up the You tube video of his and started marketing the shot as "Taliban head shot with 50 Caliber".
Rifle designs do not have to be expensive to shoot chucks, just a good barrel, good reamer, and good gunsmith that will take his time aligning the bore with the chamber and you will be able to shoot the tops of their heads off at 300 yards.
Lots of good info here. For your desired range,I would go with a 6mm of some sort. My long range rig (500 yds and out) is a custom 6mmAI that will boot the 87gr. vmax out around 3700 fps.It also weighs over 22lbs. so it will be shot off a bench.
I would think a 6BR shooting a 55gr-70gr boolit would be just the ticket.
I have killed plenty of ghogs out to and past 500 yds. with my 22BR,223AI,and 204 but that's pushing the limit for a good kill.
I have a custom 20BR coming and am curious to see how far I can " reach out and touch one". LOL
I would think a 6BR shooting a 55gr-70gr boolit would be just the ticket.
I have killed plenty of ghogs out to and past 500 yds. with my 22BR,223AI,and 204 but that's pushing the limit for a good kill.
I have a custom 20BR coming and am curious to see how far I can " reach out and touch one". LOL
snert
Silver $$ Contributor
In 15 years I have shot 627 woodchucks off one farm. I did it with everything from a k-Hornet to a 243AI. (Missed one with 7mm mag...). Most of the shooting was beyond 350, and under 700. Primary guns were 22-250, 220 Swift, 243AI in 2 versions (light bullet, heavy bullet). The 22's ran 55 grain vmax type bullets.
I can say from experience with 6BR, 22's, little 22's and the 6's that when shooting G-hogs, it takes more energy on target that any PD, and it takes a high expansion bullet to anchor them now. G-hogs are called pasture grizzlies for a reason. I have not had much luck with the 6.5 and up cartridge, primarily because the bullets are either target or deer construction. They do not dump the energy inside, and besides, I have to worry about bullet skip, as I hunt in the NE where properties are smaller than out west.
If I built a rifle it would be a 'position rifle" about 15-18 pounds, running an MBR or similar stock, and it would be in 6mmAI, running the 75-87 grain bullets. Flat, enough oomph at distance, good bullets for the task, accurate and simple. Only down side is having to find brass...but I think I would do it anyway.
I can say from experience with 6BR, 22's, little 22's and the 6's that when shooting G-hogs, it takes more energy on target that any PD, and it takes a high expansion bullet to anchor them now. G-hogs are called pasture grizzlies for a reason. I have not had much luck with the 6.5 and up cartridge, primarily because the bullets are either target or deer construction. They do not dump the energy inside, and besides, I have to worry about bullet skip, as I hunt in the NE where properties are smaller than out west.
If I built a rifle it would be a 'position rifle" about 15-18 pounds, running an MBR or similar stock, and it would be in 6mmAI, running the 75-87 grain bullets. Flat, enough oomph at distance, good bullets for the task, accurate and simple. Only down side is having to find brass...but I think I would do it anyway.
drags
Silver $$ Contributor
For the 300 to 600 yard distance I like a 8 twist 22 caliber in 22-250, 22-250AI, 220 swift, 22x47 Lapua Ect. I am currently using a 22x47 L with 80 gr. Hornady A-Max bullets using h 4831 powder the velocity is 3174 fps, longest kill so far is 510 yards, this bullet is a DRT bullet so far I haven't had any crawlers. My rifle is a Rem. 700 action 26" Krieger heavy sporter barrel with a 6.5x 20X Leupold scope, I shimmed the base and have clicks out to about 1200 yards. If I was going to do this build over again I would probably go with a 220 swift or a 22-250 AI with the swift being my first choice, just because I think the swift is cool.
Joe
Joe
Everyone has a different opinion on what long range really is. After shooting NRA competition, long range - IMHO - is 800 to 1000 yds. 300 to 700 is med range and 200 or less is short range. When you get a bit past 1,000, I guess you can call it ultra long range. Long range is a really different beast. There are many suitable options. I use a custom Ruger #1 in 6mm Remington by Mark Penrod in North Manchester IN. Haven't had a chance to actually sight in at 1,000 yds. yet but with Hornady 105s I got a five inch group at 900. And there are a lot of better shooters than me out there.
nastynatesfish
A day which we will live in infamy
I like my 22/6mm running 75gr amax at 3715
I am fortunate enough to have multiple chuck guns and shoot a good number of chucks each year (150-700). I have multiple guns for different locations, fixed shooting or walking and various yardages. One thing is for sure if you want to see your hits/misses you will need a heavy gun and a caliber 6mm or less unless you install a brake and the folks who's property you are on or near don't mind the extra noise. Here are a few of my picks and restrictions.
TC/Bullberry 22 Magnum with 33 Vmaxes for population areas good to 125 yards.
TC/Bullberry 17 Ackley Bee with 20 vmaxes out to 225.
22 Hornet Ruger 77/22 out to 250 yards with 40 grain ballistic tips and LILGun.
TC Venture 204 Ruger out to 350 with 39 grain blitzkings.
Rock River Coyote rifle shooting 53 vmax out to 300 (good for multiple targets).
20BR Savage SSS shooting 39 grain blitzkings out to 425.
220 Swift Savage shooting 53 Vmax out to 500
6mm/284 Custom Remington shooting 105 Amax out to 700
6.506 Custom Savage shooting the 140 Amax out to 1000.
For one gun 300-600 with most shots being under 500 I would go with the Swift or another large cased .224 without a brake (I hate brakes). Gun would be a repeater bolt action with a varmint weight barrel and heavy stock. Scope would be a variable with 4-6 power on the low and 16-24 on the high end.
Here is my 6mm/284 (Trued 700SA, sako extractor, flutted bolt, factory trigger adjusted, McMillian A3 stock, Flutted Krieger 26" 8 twist, Weaver 20MOA, Vortex Viper HST in Vortex Precision Rings). I shoot 55's at 4200fps, 87 Vmax and the 105 Amax all depending upon range to target. She would fit the bill!
Mike.
TC/Bullberry 22 Magnum with 33 Vmaxes for population areas good to 125 yards.
TC/Bullberry 17 Ackley Bee with 20 vmaxes out to 225.
22 Hornet Ruger 77/22 out to 250 yards with 40 grain ballistic tips and LILGun.
TC Venture 204 Ruger out to 350 with 39 grain blitzkings.
Rock River Coyote rifle shooting 53 vmax out to 300 (good for multiple targets).
20BR Savage SSS shooting 39 grain blitzkings out to 425.
220 Swift Savage shooting 53 Vmax out to 500
6mm/284 Custom Remington shooting 105 Amax out to 700
6.506 Custom Savage shooting the 140 Amax out to 1000.
For one gun 300-600 with most shots being under 500 I would go with the Swift or another large cased .224 without a brake (I hate brakes). Gun would be a repeater bolt action with a varmint weight barrel and heavy stock. Scope would be a variable with 4-6 power on the low and 16-24 on the high end.
Here is my 6mm/284 (Trued 700SA, sako extractor, flutted bolt, factory trigger adjusted, McMillian A3 stock, Flutted Krieger 26" 8 twist, Weaver 20MOA, Vortex Viper HST in Vortex Precision Rings). I shoot 55's at 4200fps, 87 Vmax and the 105 Amax all depending upon range to target. She would fit the bill!
Mike.
Woodchuck hunting has been my favorite sport however there are just about no woodchucks left here in New England and E. Ny.
Since the coyotes came here a decade ago or so the chucks are gone.
I really miss that hunting.
I started in the 1950's and got over a hundred chucks in the late 50's. In 1957 I bought a new M70 varmint rifle in 243. They came with a 26" heavy SS bbl and I used it for hunting and 200 yd target shooting. I have enough rifles but no woodchucks!
Does anyone in the Eastern NY or New England area see woodchucks?.
The land is still there. No chucks!
Since the coyotes came here a decade ago or so the chucks are gone.
I really miss that hunting.
I started in the 1950's and got over a hundred chucks in the late 50's. In 1957 I bought a new M70 varmint rifle in 243. They came with a 26" heavy SS bbl and I used it for hunting and 200 yd target shooting. I have enough rifles but no woodchucks!
Does anyone in the Eastern NY or New England area see woodchucks?.
The land is still there. No chucks!
Similar story for me on chucks. In the 1960s used a Savage 340 in .22 Hornet to take dozens of chucks on the farms in south-west Ontario. Had it re-chambered to K-Hornet.
Over the years gradually extended the range with .222, .220 Swift, 6mm-250, 6mm Rem and .25-06. Would have to say the Swift was the best of the lot.
Good shooting up to the mid 1990s and then the chucks disappeared almost over night. The increase in coyotes was one factor. The Winters in south Ontario had become mild enough that a new non-hibernating invasive species - Opossums - could survive. The Possums go down into the chuck burrows in the Winter and kill the hibernating chucks.
Another factor is the change in crop management on the farms, going to high intensity soil tillage with corn, soy and wheat, rotated each year. Gone on most farms are the un-changing hay fields that provided a stable denning site for the chucks.
A much smaller numbers of chucks are still there, hiding in the forests much like they were before the White Man created the farms in Eastern North America.
Bill
Over the years gradually extended the range with .222, .220 Swift, 6mm-250, 6mm Rem and .25-06. Would have to say the Swift was the best of the lot.
Good shooting up to the mid 1990s and then the chucks disappeared almost over night. The increase in coyotes was one factor. The Winters in south Ontario had become mild enough that a new non-hibernating invasive species - Opossums - could survive. The Possums go down into the chuck burrows in the Winter and kill the hibernating chucks.
Another factor is the change in crop management on the farms, going to high intensity soil tillage with corn, soy and wheat, rotated each year. Gone on most farms are the un-changing hay fields that provided a stable denning site for the chucks.
A much smaller numbers of chucks are still there, hiding in the forests much like they were before the White Man created the farms in Eastern North America.
Bill
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