Loading for Accuracy in Pistol Calibre Lever Actions
- Thread starter Scrumbag
- Start date
DocBII
Gold $$ Contributor
Scrumbag,
In .357 and .44, I basically treat the pistol brass like rifle brass. Same brand, clean, trim to same length, primer pockets and flash holes, champher, weigh cases and powder charge, check OGL of bullets, crimp once bullet is seated in separate step. Since these are short range rounds, don't turn or do concentricity steps.
Run ladder test on combo. Figure out if first, last or both out of magazine shoot to the same spot as other.
HTH,
DocBII
In .357 and .44, I basically treat the pistol brass like rifle brass. Same brand, clean, trim to same length, primer pockets and flash holes, champher, weigh cases and powder charge, check OGL of bullets, crimp once bullet is seated in separate step. Since these are short range rounds, don't turn or do concentricity steps.
Run ladder test on combo. Figure out if first, last or both out of magazine shoot to the same spot as other.
HTH,
DocBII
Make sure you have a case gage to ensure you final output will properly fit into the standard chamber. I like the Wilson case gages... all steel and easy to use.
Pistol ammo is a little more forgiving than precision rifle, but you still can get it to shoot well. Are you loading self-defense/hunting rounds or plinking rounds. Are you trying to max velocity or softer loads.
You have to decide what type of bullet your gun likes to shoot (shape, weight) and whether you care about a specific jacket/coating on the bullet (copper jacket or moly coated lead). Then you have to figure out if your rifle likes to load it easily/reliably without shaving off part of the bullet on the feet ramp.
As far as powders go it is a balancing act between the velocity and case fill. Modern powders are great in modern cartridges, but there are some tradeoffs when used with legacy cartridges that were designed to use black powder (very bulky). With the longer barrel you can burn some slower pistol powders if there is such a thing. Crimping typically helps... it doesn't need to be excessive.
A word of caution - if you are have pistols and rifles both chambered in same cartridge then you need to figure out a very simple, straight-forward method to easily identify/distinguish between the two different ammos, which may be loaded at different velocities. Or... make a conscious choice to make a load that will safely fire out of the pistol and rifle. For example, my subsonic 9mm that I load for my AR9 is only in nickel cases, whereas my standard velocity 9mm is in brass cases. I have also used different colored lead coated bullets to indicate different uses or bullet weights (230gr RN vs 200gr RN).
Good Luck
Pistol ammo is a little more forgiving than precision rifle, but you still can get it to shoot well. Are you loading self-defense/hunting rounds or plinking rounds. Are you trying to max velocity or softer loads.
You have to decide what type of bullet your gun likes to shoot (shape, weight) and whether you care about a specific jacket/coating on the bullet (copper jacket or moly coated lead). Then you have to figure out if your rifle likes to load it easily/reliably without shaving off part of the bullet on the feet ramp.
As far as powders go it is a balancing act between the velocity and case fill. Modern powders are great in modern cartridges, but there are some tradeoffs when used with legacy cartridges that were designed to use black powder (very bulky). With the longer barrel you can burn some slower pistol powders if there is such a thing. Crimping typically helps... it doesn't need to be excessive.
A word of caution - if you are have pistols and rifles both chambered in same cartridge then you need to figure out a very simple, straight-forward method to easily identify/distinguish between the two different ammos, which may be loaded at different velocities. Or... make a conscious choice to make a load that will safely fire out of the pistol and rifle. For example, my subsonic 9mm that I load for my AR9 is only in nickel cases, whereas my standard velocity 9mm is in brass cases. I have also used different colored lead coated bullets to indicate different uses or bullet weights (230gr RN vs 200gr RN).
Good Luck
Scrumbag -
Howdy !
My expereince was w/ .357Mag in both 4", 5", and 6" "N " frames; and then also in an 1894SC.
I think first & foremost is to use a powder best suited for the .357Mag . I myself prefered WW296 to the use of 2400, as it provided me the best accuracy in numerous .357Magnum's. The load that shot well in my "N" frames, also shot the best in my 1894 . But, I will addd that I was shooting cast 158 - 172gr SWCs
( mostly from Lyman moulds, and mostly non-gas checked ). If one wants to shoot the heavies, that might be a whole 'nother thing.
I do trim cases to the same oal, and I also uniform primer pockets. I have enough brass to prevent them from becoming brittle w/ due to multiple firings that occur. I don't feel the need to weigh cases.
I also have not needed to use a huge amount of crimp.
A good powder measure that dispenses consistent charges, is also a great help.
With regards,
357Mag
Thanks folks.
The reason I am asking is this is my first foray into reloading straight wall cartridges and it's a bit of a learning curve. (Been loading bottle neck rifle cartridges for a few years).
I've been struggling to get consistent loads in my .44 mag lever action. My load / process is this:
- PPU brass (Deprimed and resized, sonic cleaned, put through Lee trimmer so won't be over length, and belled using the expander / fill through die).
- Prime using a hand primer (Magtech large pistol)
- Weigh individual charges and add to cases through funnel
- Seat bullets (Nosler 240gr JSP). I find I get a more consistent result if do 2 strokes with this. First stroke send the ram home, drop down a bit and give the round a quarter turn. Don't know why, just seems to give a more consistent length (Something to do with that big, flat, soft meplat maybe?).
- Crimp. I use the Lee Factory Crimp die.
Sometimes it does quite well:
(4 rounds, 50 yds and I think the one out to the right might have been me)
But other times I struggle to reproduce it. I have a feeling that group was shot with 3/4 turn of crimp (Lee recommends 1/2 a turn is a light crimp, to 1 full turn being a full crimp).
Current batch I'm trying a full turn of crimp.
Further comments and thoughts welcomed.
Scrummy
The reason I am asking is this is my first foray into reloading straight wall cartridges and it's a bit of a learning curve. (Been loading bottle neck rifle cartridges for a few years).
I've been struggling to get consistent loads in my .44 mag lever action. My load / process is this:
- PPU brass (Deprimed and resized, sonic cleaned, put through Lee trimmer so won't be over length, and belled using the expander / fill through die).
- Prime using a hand primer (Magtech large pistol)
- Weigh individual charges and add to cases through funnel
- Seat bullets (Nosler 240gr JSP). I find I get a more consistent result if do 2 strokes with this. First stroke send the ram home, drop down a bit and give the round a quarter turn. Don't know why, just seems to give a more consistent length (Something to do with that big, flat, soft meplat maybe?).
- Crimp. I use the Lee Factory Crimp die.
Sometimes it does quite well:
(4 rounds, 50 yds and I think the one out to the right might have been me)
But other times I struggle to reproduce it. I have a feeling that group was shot with 3/4 turn of crimp (Lee recommends 1/2 a turn is a light crimp, to 1 full turn being a full crimp).
Current batch I'm trying a full turn of crimp.
Further comments and thoughts welcomed.
Scrummy
Nice shooting, Mike!
How's life down under at the moment?
I only have a 2.5x28 scout scope on mine. I had someone load up 200gr XTPs for me:
Just think I need to learn to load straight wall cartridges better as the rifle seems capable of shooting fairly well.
Scrummy
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My little Marlin, really really surprised me for accuracy in a lever gun. I brought it for a "knockabout" but in reality the wood and the entire gun was too good to destroy behind the seat of the truck or in the boat or on motorbike etc so I sold it.
All my ammo was loaded on my dillon, nothing special with a very light crimp.
Life down under has been "interesting" especially the last few years......................................................................
My Marlin was a replacement for my AR15 when is was "brought back" by our Govt after ALL semi -auto center-fires were banned in 2019
Currently we are struggling with covid like everyone else except in our case they tried to keep us covid free 100%, which is/was a failure as expected
Has not really changed the way I think, looking after my family first, neighbours and friends second and see how it goes from there. Life is what it is
All my ammo was loaded on my dillon, nothing special with a very light crimp.
Life down under has been "interesting" especially the last few years......................................................................
My Marlin was a replacement for my AR15 when is was "brought back" by our Govt after ALL semi -auto center-fires were banned in 2019
Currently we are struggling with covid like everyone else except in our case they tried to keep us covid free 100%, which is/was a failure as expected
Has not really changed the way I think, looking after my family first, neighbours and friends second and see how it goes from there. Life is what it is
You should not have let that one go, buddy!
Seat and Crimp separately.
Slight crimp against recoil set back only.
Just like Rifle Caliber I want a 70%+ fill and that can dictate powder.
Pistol Cal Magnum and 6 1/2 primers for me depending.
Thanks O Lever action.
I think I might need to experiment with crimp more.
I'm using the Lee Factory Crimp Die and it's a separate stage to the seating. I've always read that it was better to use more crimp with .44 mag so perhaps I should take my little portable set up to the range and go from light to heavy in small increments...
I now have some Federal 155s to try. I have found that N110 gave me a cleaner burn and better accuracy than H110 with the Magtech primers Large Pistol I started out with.
Scrummy
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Well folks, next chapter in the .44 mag loading journey continues.
Given the spreading of non-lead requirements, I have wondered about going over to non-lead in the .44 mag lever action.
Not being able to get Barnes XPB here, I picked up some bullets from a South African company called Peregrine:
Left 180gr Hog (Check out that flying ashtray hollow-point)
Centre 240gr Nosler JSP (for comparison)
Right 205gr VR3 (has a plunger to initiate expansion)
Managed to source some Viht N105 and Hodgdon Lil'gun for the Hog and VR3 respectively (miracle some how) and will report back results.
Best wishes,
Scrummy
Given the spreading of non-lead requirements, I have wondered about going over to non-lead in the .44 mag lever action.
Not being able to get Barnes XPB here, I picked up some bullets from a South African company called Peregrine:
Left 180gr Hog (Check out that flying ashtray hollow-point)
Centre 240gr Nosler JSP (for comparison)
Right 205gr VR3 (has a plunger to initiate expansion)
Managed to source some Viht N105 and Hodgdon Lil'gun for the Hog and VR3 respectively (miracle some how) and will report back results.
Best wishes,
Scrummy
That crimp looks strange to me. I'm a big fan of the roll crimp in both 38 and 357. But mine looks waaaaay different than yours.Thanks folks.
The reason I am asking is this is my first foray into reloading straight wall cartridges and it's a bit of a learning curve. (Been loading bottle neck rifle cartridges for a few years).
I've been struggling to get consistent loads in my .44 mag lever action. My load / process is this:
- PPU brass (Deprimed and resized, sonic cleaned, put through Lee trimmer so won't be over length, and belled using the expander / fill through die).
- Prime using a hand primer (Magtech large pistol)
- Weigh individual charges and add to cases through funnel
- Seat bullets (Nosler 240gr JSP). I find I get a more consistent result if do 2 strokes with this. First stroke send the ram home, drop down a bit and give the round a quarter turn. Don't know why, just seems to give a more consistent length (Something to do with that big, flat, soft meplat maybe?).
- Crimp. I use the Lee Factory Crimp die.
Sometimes it does quite well:
(4 rounds, 50 yds and I think the one out to the right might have been me)
But other times I struggle to reproduce it. I have a feeling that group was shot with 3/4 turn of crimp (Lee recommends 1/2 a turn is a light crimp, to 1 full turn being a full crimp).
Current batch I'm trying a full turn of crimp.
Further comments and thoughts welcomed.
Scrummy
Attachments
Kittitas George
Gold $$ Contributor
I've worked up good loads for 357 and 41 Mag revolvers. Then decided I needed a 'saddle gun'. So I got a 357 Marlin lever action. It wouldn't feed my revolver loads and wouldn't 'group', then the same thing with a 41 Mag Marlin. Easy solution, put the Model 70, 270 in the scabbard.
wildcatter
Silver $$ Contributor
My same steps I take for revolvers in those calibers! Start with a heavy for caliber slug if hunting deer and larger game, fare superior to jackets. Less pressure, more velocity, and when cast and sized properly, no leading. I like
430 grain in 470 caliber
340 grain in 45 caliber,
320 grains in 44 caliber
180 grain in 357 caliber
`40 grain in 32 caliber
and of course we are stuck with 40 grain in 22LR for optimum available accuracy ammo!
Crimp! revolver or rifle, a heavy "profile crimp" is one of the most important thing I've found to increase accuracy. I have a Redding profile crimp die for every set of straightwall dies I own. I have proven that ever load I have worked up shoots noticeably better than using the standard crimp dies/ Most think this is just for keeping bullets for jumping the crimp in handguns, but I have found it is a required die for optimum accuracy in my handgun calibers from 2 LR to 475 Linebaugh!
Yes I am so certain crimp is important that I use a die to tighten up even my 22LR ammo in my rifle and my revolvers! The more consistent the crimp, the better the ignition, and if aint started consistent, it don't matter the rest of the way down the barrel!
I vary my bullet profiles for the type of game, from WLF for solids and the biggest or toughest skinned game per caliber, to HP for smaller per caliber game, and always cast my own usually with 70/30 alloy, ww to lead with a about 3 oz of tin per 10 lbs. Far any of my needs in these calibers this has proven to outperform jackets in every firearm I have used them in, and the advantage of not needing to clean the barrel once properly seasoned with the proper alloy and sized bullets!
For brass,,, nothing gets used for my loads except Starline! The Lapua of straghtwall cartridges! Stick with magnum primers, H-110, 2400 and L'il gun depending on caliber, with good crimps, and you'll find little to improve on.
430 grain in 470 caliber
340 grain in 45 caliber,
320 grains in 44 caliber
180 grain in 357 caliber
`40 grain in 32 caliber
and of course we are stuck with 40 grain in 22LR for optimum available accuracy ammo!
Crimp! revolver or rifle, a heavy "profile crimp" is one of the most important thing I've found to increase accuracy. I have a Redding profile crimp die for every set of straightwall dies I own. I have proven that ever load I have worked up shoots noticeably better than using the standard crimp dies/ Most think this is just for keeping bullets for jumping the crimp in handguns, but I have found it is a required die for optimum accuracy in my handgun calibers from 2 LR to 475 Linebaugh!
Yes I am so certain crimp is important that I use a die to tighten up even my 22LR ammo in my rifle and my revolvers! The more consistent the crimp, the better the ignition, and if aint started consistent, it don't matter the rest of the way down the barrel!
I vary my bullet profiles for the type of game, from WLF for solids and the biggest or toughest skinned game per caliber, to HP for smaller per caliber game, and always cast my own usually with 70/30 alloy, ww to lead with a about 3 oz of tin per 10 lbs. Far any of my needs in these calibers this has proven to outperform jackets in every firearm I have used them in, and the advantage of not needing to clean the barrel once properly seasoned with the proper alloy and sized bullets!
For brass,,, nothing gets used for my loads except Starline! The Lapua of straghtwall cartridges! Stick with magnum primers, H-110, 2400 and L'il gun depending on caliber, with good crimps, and you'll find little to improve on.
cromag77
Silver $$ Contributor
I find that standard pressure/velocity gives the most consistent accuracy. I use only lead, sized to the typical maximum diameter for caliber, factory crimp and I always fill the case to the base of the bullet with Cream of Wheat over the powder, and slightly compress it. I keep it dry by buying it and immediately transferring to a closed lid container. Perfect shot to shot consistency without worrying about powder position for the fast burn powders I use.
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