Load development question

[Bc'z]

Simply put, one must start somewhere and neither way is correct or incorrect.

Next, if all these test are done from a rest what is there to remove inconsistent operator error? I bet none of these are performed from a fixed machine rest which eliminates any barrel movement..

The barrel has to move

 

[KMW 1954]

The barrel has to move

Fine, let me rephrase that. Eliminates movement of barrel point of aim. I seriously doubt that very many of us here can consistently shoot into the same hole.

 

[DaveTooley]

I've shot short range BR off and on for 47 years now. Seating depth matters. When tuning up my latest barrel a change of .003" induced some vertical in the group. The next two seating depths shot the same so I split the difference of those two depths. If it matters in a BR rifle, it matters in other disciplines. YMMV

 

[JFrank]

all these test are done from a rest what is there to remove inconsistent operator error?

That’s what the rest and rear bag is for, this helps to remove operator influence so we see the load coming into tune.

 

[Bc'z]

Fine, let me rephrase that. Eliminates movement of barrel point of aim. I seriously doubt that very many of us here can consistently shoot into the same hole.

I was shooting off a Baldeagle front rest protector bags front and rear.
Looking at the 2 shot seating test above I noticed how the groups POI migrated right and down.
I'm waiting on a cantilever mount to install a 6x24 Arken before shooting charge.
I wasn't happy with the Vortex 16x Diamond back

 

[DaveTooley]

I was shooting off a Baldeagle front rest protector bags front and rear.
Looking at the 2 shot seating test above I noticed how the groups POI migrated right and down.
I'm waiting on a cantilever mount to install a 6x24 Arken before shooting charge.
I wasn't happy with the Vortex 16x Diamond back

Don't be afraid to move the front rest towards the rear. Also try taking your thumb out of the equation.

 

[KMW 1954]

Seating depth matters. When tuning up my latest barrel a change of .003" induced some vertical in the group. . If it matters in a BR rifle, it matters in other disciplines. YMMV

So you are eluding that an off the shelf Savage or Howa is going to show the same sensitivity? Also how many average, everyday shooters or reloaders going to take the time to seat and measure to that exacting standard?

 

[DaveTooley]

So you are eluding that an off the shelf Savage or Howa is going to show the same sensitivity? Also how many average, everyday shooters or reloaders going to take the time to seat and measure to that exacting standard?

Maybe not the same resolution/accuracy as a BR rifle but yes it matters in every platform. If it didn't this site/reloading forum, gauges, dies, different manufacturers, whiz bang gadgets wouldn't exist.

 

[Bc'z]

Don't be afraid to move the front rest towards the rear. Also try taking your thumb out of the equation.

I rest my thumb on the side, trigger is about 8-10oz.
I'll play with front rest positioning.
Bad scope clarity and fat cross hairs are big negatives for testing.
The Arken has a fine aiming dot and higher magnification which should help eliminate some noise.

 

[Bc'z]

So you are eluding that an off the shelf Savage or Howa is going to show the same sensitivity? Also how many average, everyday shooters or reloaders going to take the time to seat and measure to that exacting standard?

Yes, I've done it, and I've helped numerous friends tune thier factory sporters for hunting with sub .5moa accuracy.

 

[KMW 1954]

Maybe not the same resolution/accuracy as a BR rifle but yes it matters in every platform. If it didn't this site/reloading forum, gauges, dies, different manufacturers, whiz bang gadgets wouldn't exist.

Indeed. But at times, here and other forums. we seem to loose sight of the fact that not everyone is striving for the same goals and levels.

For instance, just by yourself how many other members have your level of experience, skills and expertise? How many long to achieve what you have? How many are going to take the time to turn those small knobs to gain a consistent .2" smaller group or to reduce an SD to single digits?

 

[G Liles]

Indeed. But at times, here and other forums. we seem to loose sight of the fact that not everyone is striving for the same goals and levels.

For instance, just by yourself how many other members have your level of experience, skills and expertise? How many long to achieve what you have? How many are going to take the time to turn those small knobs to gain a consistent .2" smaller group or to reduce an SD to single digits?

I started shooting 600 yard matches 8 years ago and if you could shoot a 3 inch agg you stood a good chance to win, now if that’s the best you’re rifle will agg you will finish last. So I would say shooters are more concerned about accuracy now more than ever.

 

[Ccrider]

Indeed. But at times, here and other forums. we seem to loose sight of the fact that not everyone is striving for the same goals and levels.

For instance, just by yourself how many other members have your level of experience, skills and expertise? How many long to achieve what you have? How many are going to take the time to turn those small knobs to gain a consistent .2" smaller group or to reduce an SD to single digits

The op ask whether one should adjust seating depth or powder charge first. The answer does not depend on how successful the person responding is. Presumably, the op wants as much accuracy as he can obtain with his 223 and 6br shooting 108 bergers.

He is probably safe trusting the responses from the proven best br shooters and fortunate, like all of us, to be able to get them on this site.

Ultimately, a consistent methodical approach, self tested and verified is what the op will be able to trust and rely on.

 

[KMW 1954]

Ultimately, a consistent methodical approach, self tested and verified is what the op will be able to trust and rely on.

Without a doubt. I shoot target matches at our range and as a collective group our scores have increased and our targets more challenging. As a group of 21 members for this year we as a whole shot below .5moa at targets ranging from 100 to 300yds. Best ever recorded in the 10 year history of this league.

At the same time I work at this range as a RO and am starting my 5th year there. This is a very large outdoor facility with 4 rifle ranges. The 100yd range has 42 permanent benches. 12 at the 200/300yd range and 24 at the 50yd and 22 at the 25yd.

I have the pleasure to interact will all sorts of people. From the occasional shooter to the highly motivated competition shooters. From those that shoot nothing but factory ammunition to those that only shoot hand loads. By my guess the factory to reloads is probably 55/45 in favor of factory.

Like many that post here and on the other forums I frequent there are many levels of reloaders and it all revolvers around their own personal needs and desires. From simple cheap blasting ammo to the highly exotic. Those reloading for blasting fun do not need the same level of ammunition and certainly do not invest the same time, money and energy as a competitive shooter. Big knobs vs Little knobs.

Every load development still needs to start somewhere. Normally the first step is choosing the appropriate components and load data. From there one can start with published data, using published seating lengths. Most of which are written as a COAL and not a BTO. From there jump or jam can be debated until the end of time. Same as charge weight increments, should it be every .1gr or every .5gr. or somewhere in-between. In the end it is all a matter of getting to be where one wants to be. Whatever your criteria might be.

For myself a load isn't proven until I have been able to get the results to repeat at least 3 times, because yes, I as the operator am part of the final equation.

My advice to the OP, try a development both ways and see what suites your style.

 

[searcher]

While there are powders that are "known" to be good for a particular bullet and caliber, if after trying a powder .005" at jamb, .005" off and .015" off, (and at three powder settings at least one grain apart, ending where I want my velocity), I don't usually try to work on fine tuning any of them if the powder isn't giving me acceptable accuracy. Instead, I'll move promptly to another powder and repeat. One powder usually works better than another, regardless of depth fiddling, so I try to cue in on one that is showing signs of being above the others at multiple settings first. I used to do depth first and that often led me to continue whipping that dead horse without much improvement. in some of my rifles, it took several powders to find incredible accuracy. If I never tried them, I'd have never gotten what I ended up with, regardless of seating depth. Finding the optimum seating depth for any powder will give the best results for that particular powder - but not necessarily for the gun overall.

 

[Wild Bill IV]

You're going to get a variety of answers, none of which could be necessarily wrong.

Here's my experience of 50+ years of reloading.

1. Select a powder which as a proven historical record with the cartridge you are loading. I found the extruded powder works better over a wide range of temperature than ball powder. Also, ball powder is more sensitive to small charges changes.

2. Select a bullet that meets your needs. If hunting, terminal performance is a key factor to consider. Match the bullet with the twist rate of the rifle. Rarely have I found that Sierra and Nosler bullets don't produce the best accuracy. However, I have never experimented with Berger which a lot of top shooters use.

3. Select an appropriate primer i.e., standard or magnum, for the powder you have chosen. I keep the primer as a constant and only change when nothing else works to produce the accuracy I need. To date, this has not happened.

4. Seating depth. Since I am primarily a precision varmint hunter, I start .020" off the lands or further if required by the magazine or amount of free bore in the rifle. I also like to have sufficient bullet length inside the neck to assure adequate bullet tension under recoil. I use the old "rule of thumb" of one bullet diameter minus the boat tail inside the neck.

The most influential component with few exceptions that I found is the bullet selection. In most of my rifles seating depth within reason, is not a significant factor that I can detect. For example, my Remington 700 varmint has a lot of free bore necessitating considerable amount of jump yet this rifle shoots on par with all my other rifles.

The other issue which I consider critical is case management. I strive for optimum case fit in the chamber and use only virgin cases dedicated to a specific rifle and I rotate their use. I full size all my case all the time.

I'M WITH K22 ON THIS ISSUE!!
I'm a year shy of 50 years of reloading bench style for hunting!!
In my experiences, the SGK SBT bullets are best at touch, or within 0.003" jump!!
So, I start of at 0.002 jump and work on charge testing 1st!!
If I'm reloading with a bullet other than SGKs, I seat the jump at 0.020" and do charge testing first!!

CHARGE TEST FIRST, IMO BASED ON EXPERIENCE!!!
It really doesn't matter, as long as you test, changing only one element at a time!!
In my past, Charge 1st (1/2% increments at 100), Jump 2nd at 500, Refined charge test 3rd (0.1 grain increments at 500) finding the up and lower limits of the node settling at mid limit generally!! All of my target/varmint rifles are sub 1/4MOA using SIERRA SBT GAMEKING bullets with increasing BC as the velocity decreases!!

As an ethical hunter, I look at the Lethality equations!!! From the testing, the chronograph stats determines the ethical kill range of that rifle/load combination!! No since in testing any further than that range!!!

 

[RegionRat]

Would it be fair to say, that unless the OP gets more specific about those two rigs, there are no right or wrong answers?

In most light factory rig contexts, I agree with the idea that it will circle around at least several sessions of charge and depth before there is any confidence. But... the steps and methods when the context is a well known high quality target rig built to purpose are very different, and so are the possible size of those tuning effects.

Isn't it true that if the 223 rig is built to some target competition standards, we hardly even do any "load development"? The work is really just a little fine tuning of a well established recipe.
But... if that is some unknown chamber in a light factory rig, we would have to pull out the stops in the load recipe search? (And will likely have to circle back more than once.)

A heavy target barrel section in that 6 BR running a reamer oriented toward BR or 300m competition is one thing, and a factory rig is another, in terms of how an experienced loader will approach the starting work.

So all I will add that might help the OP, is that context matters. If the load tuning matters much, depends a lot on the hardware context and the type of shooting you like to do. I have a feeling the OP spec'd out his rigs with a purpose to them this time around, and they are going to shoot fine with just about anything he feeds them. YMMV

Good Luck and in for the range reports!

 

[cavedweller60]

Would it be fair to say, that unless the OP gets more specific about those two rigs, there are no right or wrong answers?

In most light factory rig contexts, I agree with the idea that it will circle around at least several sessions of charge and depth before there is any confidence. But... the steps and methods when the context is a well known high quality target rig built to purpose are very different, and so are the possible size of those tuning effects.

Isn't it true that if the 223 rig is built to some target competition standards, we hardly even do any "load development"? The work is really just a little fine tuning of a well established recipe.
But... if that is some unknown chamber in a light factory rig, we would have to pull out the stops in the load recipe search? (And will likely have to circle back more than once.)

A heavy target barrel section in that 6 BR running a reamer oriented toward BR or 300m competition is one thing, and a factory rig is another, in terms of how an experienced loader will approach the starting work.

So all I will add that might help the OP, is that context matters. If the load tuning matters much, depends a lot on the hardware context and the type of shooting you like to do. I have a feeling the OP spec'd out his rigs with a purpose to them this time around, and they are going to shoot fine with just about anything he feeds them. YMMV

Good Luck and in for the range reports!

Good points about the rigs I'm shooting. The 6br is just a savage 12F that has proven to be a very good shooter. When I was shooting it a lot, 12-15 years ago, it was an honest .25moa gun. Since that time, I have lost the load data and I am starting from scratch so, I figured I would try to develop loads in a more practical manner.

The AR is a more purpose built target gun. It has a 22 inch Lilja heavy profile 8 twist barrel with a matched Young Manufacturing bolt and carrier, Seekins matched receiver set and a Geisele national match trigger. I will be using it in AR - tactical matches so the trigger is set at the minimum allowed weight of 4.5 pounds. The first stage is just about 4 lbs and the second stages is about .5 pounds. All rounds will be individually fed. It should be a decent shooter but, it has been a little harder to find a real good load. I am getting about .75 moa but really want to get it under .5moa.

 

[RegionRat]

In your AR... If you are going to single feed and shoot beyond 300 yards, then why not run the SMK or Berger 80s in a 7 - 7.5 Twist?

The 77 SMK/TMK etc., are for magazine feed rules and stages, but even those should shoot well enough for the first 300 yards on stages with rapids. And most of the games will be a SR target that those can handle.

When/if it comes to shooting on the F target, you, your loads, and the rig, will all have to step up to hold the X ring at 600, but at least we are probably going to skip the powder hunt and say go straight to Varget and you will end up really close to 23.5 - 24 grains with those bullets.

I'm also going to guess the loads will all be jumping since this context can get difficult if you jam.

I'm not much help with your old Savage 6BR, but unless I am mistaken even there you will be running Varget right under compression. plus or minus your seating habit. The good news is, if you get frustrated it is trivial to order a bbl exactly how you want it and screw it on.

Again, your charge weight in an AR isn't as wide of a search as some unknown factory carry rifle. If you shoot at a club, your club mates will tune you up quick. Good Luck and in for the reports!

 

[cavedweller60]

In your AR... If you are going to single feed and shoot beyond 300 yards, then why not run the SMK or Berger 80s in a 7 - 7.5 Twist?

The 77 SMK/TMK etc., are for magazine feed rules and stages, but even those should shoot well enough for the first 300 yards on stages with rapids. And most of the games will be a SR target that those can handle.

When/if it comes to shooting on the F target, you, your loads, and the rig, will all have to step up to hold the X ring at 600, but at least we are probably going to skip the powder hunt and say go straight to Varget and you will end up really close to 23.5 - 24 grains with those bullets.

I'm also going to guess the loads will all be jumping since this context can get difficult if you jam.

I'm not much help with your old Savage 6BR, but unless I am mistaken even there you will be running Varget right under compression. plus or minus your seating habit. The good news is, if you get frustrated it is trivial to order a bbl exactly how you want it and screw it on.

Again, your charge weight in an AR isn't as wide of a search as some unknown factory carry rifle. If you shoot at a club, your club mates will tune you up quick. Good Luck and in for the reports!

I wish I had a 7 or a 7.7 twist but, I already have the 8 and I don't want to go all in on a new barrel until I see if I will stick with this game. I am shooting some 80.5 Bergers now on top of RL15 and it is ok but, not as good as the 77s. I am guessing that is, at least partially, due to the slower twist. I have varget as well and it seems like people prefer that over RL15 but, I haven't played with it yet.