Best distance for load development?

[seymour fish]

Jim, I follow your wisdom on here and thank you for it. Had the great luck to cherry pick conditions for 1000 and had full set of flags on 22’ poles. Spotting scope focused for mirage, 42x on rifle. In 308, the node of a simple ladder with happy powder/bullet/seating depth would run 0.4-0.6 grains. 3-shot ladders at 0.1 grain increments at 1000 would clearly show changes in both group size and POI which were repeatable. All shots in same condition, preferably a steady direction and speed of 2-5 mph, and never in a boil. Seymour

Meant to include “simple ladder AT 100”

 

[seymour fish]

Meant to include “simple ladder AT 100”

Also, the best load at 1000 would have a tiny bit of Vertical in it when shot for group at 100 for a reference

 

[NZ_Fclass]

Speed/es at 100 yds, groups at 500. Groups at 100 really a waste of bullets.

 

[garandman]

Speed/es at 100 yds, groups at 500. Groups at 100 really a waste of bullets.

*may* be a waste of bullets. 100 y isn't a guarantee of accuracy at 500+ but it can be a guarantee of inaccuracy at 500 +

 

[johara1]

Jim, I follow your wisdom on here and thank you for it. Had the great luck to cherry pick conditions for 1000 and had full set of flags on 22’ poles. Spotting scope focused for mirage, 42x on rifle. In 308, the node of a simple ladder with happy powder/bullet/seating depth would run 0.4-0.6 grains. 3-shot ladders at 0.1 grain increments at 1000 would clearly show changes in both group size and POI which were repeatable. All shots in same condition, preferably a steady direction and speed of 2-5 mph, and never in a boil. Seymour

Again it sounds good but no-one can see a 1mph change. I never tried to tweak a load at 1000 due to trying to shoot sub 2" groups. I rely on a 100 yards under controlled conditions and relying on Labradar for velocity and ES, group shape and repeatable groups .... it will hammer at a 1000... jim

 

[BartsBullets]

Speed/es at 100 yds, groups at 500. Groups at 100 really a waste of bullets.

Sometimes Long range guys say the Darndest things!

Bart

 

[F Class John]

Again it sounds good but no-one can see a 1mph change. I never tried to tweak a load at 1000 due to trying to shoot sub 2" groups. I rely on a 100 yards under controlled conditions and relying on Labradar for velocity and ES, group shape and repeatable groups .... it will hammer at a 1000... jim

I totally agree except I will tweak my loads once I have my go-to data from 100. At 1000 I’m looking ONLY for my vertical group variance. I don’t care about my horizontal, only vertical. Here’s a test I did yesterday in fact. Slight tweaks to the load and ALL shot at a single point of aim with no regard for the minimal wind I had. All I’m looking for is which tweak yields the smallest vertical because I’ll deal with the wind during matches. I just want the tightest waterline possible going into any given match. Out of five tweaks the dark blue group was the best at 1000yds with a 1.8” vertical and the worst was yellow at 5.4” (the group looks larger because of scaling and the fact that Shotmarker measure to center of bullet hole). The actual numbers don’t necessarily matter as much as the seeing which one produces the cleanest waterline and that in general it’s at least 1/2” MoA or less. Basically I strive for an X waterline or better.

 

[johara1]

I totally agree except I will tweak my loads once I have my go-to data from 100. At 1000 I’m looking ONLY for my vertical group variance. I don’t care about my horizontal, only vertical. Here’s a test I did yesterday in fact. Slight tweaks to the load and ALL shot at a single point of aim with no regard for the minimal wind I had. All I’m looking for is which tweak yields the smallest vertical because I’ll deal with the wind during matches. I just want the tightest waterline possible going into any given match. Out of five tweaks the dark blue group was the best at 1000yds with a 1.8” vertical and the worst was yellow at 5.4” (the group looks larger because of scaling and the fact that Shotmarker measure to center of bullet hole). The actual numbers don’t necessarily matter as much as the seeing which one produces the cleanest waterline and that in general it’s at least 1/2” MoA or less. Basically I strive for an X waterline or better.
View attachment 1139972

Dealing with wind at 1000 has nothing to do with load development.... 5" of vertical makes you happy at 1000, really? 5" groups at a 1000 isn't going to win much at bench rest. Barrel quality play a huge part of what happens at a 1000, good honest barrel will shoot good but not help you like hummer..... jim

 

[johara1]

*may* be a waste of bullets. 100 y isn't a guarantee of accuracy at 500+ but it can be a guarantee of inaccuracy at 500 +

If you know what to look for it sure does, I quit wasting barrels at mid range shooting half inch groups at 500 prove nothing, 2" and 3" groups at 1000 do at a match. ...jim

 

[F Class John]

Dealing with wind at 1000 has nothing to do with load development.... 5" of vertical makes you happy at 1000, really? 5" groups at a 1000 isn't going to win much at bench rest. Barrel quality play a huge part of what happens at a 1000, good honest barrel will shoot good but not help you like hummer..... jim

I guess we can agree to disagree since we are shooting different disciplines and that’s ok. First I don’t care about shooting benchrest and railing off 5 or ten rounds in five or ten seconds (this doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate what they do or the crazy small groups they can shoot, I just don’t care about doing it). Second 5” vertical isn’t the same thing as a 5” group for my purposes. I said I wanted better than 5” vertical which I totally agree is a different thing in f-class than a 5” group in benchrest. We shoot for 20 shots for score over a period of time often in changing conditions and not 5 or 10 round groups shot over a few seconds or a minute. Trust me, if you have a solid load that will keep within the x-ring (5”) or less for vertical then you can win any day if you can read wind and mirage. Plus while it will work, I wasn’t happy with 5” which is why I tweaked it until I had less than a 2” vertical. At a 1000yd match, I have 10” of real estate in horizontal to play with and only about 5” of vertical because in f-class 10s win matches and that 10”x5” rectangle is more or less your acceptable landing zone for the bullets. I strive for less than 5” because vertical will kill you with dropped 9s out the corners if your vertical isn’t under control. So yeah, I’ll take 5” of vertical but work towards less and worry about wind and mirage on the day of the match. Me and three buddies of mine all load in the pretty much the same way (load for waterline and not group size) and we have 36 medals collectively from SOA and Nationals this year that say it works even though we’d get killed at a benchrest match shooting the same loads and that’s ok.

 

[Joe Salt]

F Class John I myself don't like water lines! That tells me the wind is affecting your bullet. What makes you think shot #18 wasn't something you did. I'd play a little more with the red load.

Joe Salt

 

[F Class John]

F Class John I myself don't like water lines! That tells me the wind is affecting your bullet. What makes you think shot #18 wasn't something you did. I'd play a little more with the red load.

Joe Salt

I hear ya. I know exactly what happed on the red group. I bumped the stock and I made a note. But when measured even without that mistake the dark blue group was a about 1/4” shorter in vertical. I know it’s 99% there so that barrel is getting spun off today and out aside for BSWN and a couple weeks ahead it’ll come out and get a final tweak.

 

[garandman]

If you know what to look for it sure does, I quit wasting barrels at mid range shooting half inch groups at 500 prove nothing, 2" and 3" groups at 1000 do at a match. ...jim

Can you re-state ? Im not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.

I will say it this way… your load development is not ultimately done until it is producing the desired groups at the precise distance you will be shooting/competing.

If you are Competing at 600 yd, your 100 yd groups may or may not be helpful. Ya really need to shoot at 600 To find out if your load is right.

But ya really cant begin load development at 600. I generally start at 100. That starting point is not a "waste."

 

[JFrank]

How close are those two recipes to each other

 

[johara1]

I guess we can agree to disagree since we are shooting different disciplines and that’s ok. First I don’t care about shooting benchrest and railing off 5 or ten rounds in five or ten seconds (this doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate what they do or the crazy small groups they can shoot, I just don’t care about doing it). Second 5” vertical isn’t the same thing as a 5” group for my purposes. I said I wanted better than 5” vertical which I totally agree is a different thing in f-class than a 5” group in benchrest. We shoot for 20 shots for score over a period of time often in changing conditions and not 5 or 10 round groups shot over a few seconds or a minute. Trust me, if you have a solid load that will keep within the x-ring (5”) or less for vertical then you can win any day if you can read wind and mirage. Plus while it will work, I wasn’t happy with 5” which is why I tweaked it until I had less than a 2” vertical. At a 1000yd match, I have 10” of real estate in horizontal to play with and only about 5” of vertical because in f-class 10s win matches and that 10”x5” rectangle is more or less your acceptable landing zone for the bullets. I strive for less than 5” because vertical will kill you with dropped 9s out the corners if your vertical isn’t under control. So yeah, I’ll take 5” of vertical but work towards less and worry about wind and mirage on the day of the match. Me and three buddies of mine all load in the pretty much the same way (load for waterline and not group size) and we have 36 medals collectively from SOA and Nationals this year that say it works even though we’d get killed at a benchrest match shooting the same loads and that’s ok.

I don't get this rattle them off deal, I'm a picker, and watch the flags, I sure don't see a marked shot after each round, we mostly shoot ten shots.... You can never be satisfied at BR. you have to keep shooting smaller..... jim

 

[tom]

You can never be satisfied at BR. you have to keep shooting smaller.

And that right there is the truth regardless of how one goes about it!

Tom

 

[johara1]

And that right there is the truth regardless of how one goes about it!

Tom

Yea, bud.... What are you doing for next year..... jim

 

[GSS]

During load development what is your preferred target distance for evaluation of your experimental loads? Are you using the same distance for determining ideal seating depth and powder charge or are you using different distances? If you are shooting different calibers, are you shooting different distances to test your experimental loads?[/QUOTE

OP / Kasimir58,,, please clarify

Are you asking regarding for load development for;
an M1 Garand,
a 30-06 hunting rifle or
a 1000 yard benchrest rifle ?

Lots of great replies referring to many great past threads and web articles but we still don't know what the OP is looking for....

 

[garandman]

You can never be satisfied at BR. you have to keep shooting smaller..... jim

Truth.

 

[tom]

Yea, bud.... What are you doing for next year..... jim

Practicing holding my breath so I don't fog up my scope today! Trying to get as far as I can on a fresh tube before hibernation lol.

Tom