Load development - need help!

[frankmueller]

I started a new project. Bought a new custom barrel for my Blaser R8 and now I need opinions on load develoment.

Blaser R8 .308 Win
Bix´n Andy barrel lenth 23,6", Twist 11,33" chamber: .340
Bix´n Andy Trigger
Brass: new Lapua, neck turned 0,0138"
Distance:109 yards

I broke the barrel in with 168gr SMK, 42gr IMR 3031, CCI Br2, COL 2,8" (last group):

But I need a bullet for hunting and dicided to give the Hasler Ariete 148gr a try.
It seems like Hodgdon cfe223 was not the best choice:

Load data is attached.

Different seating depths (not very succesful as well):

I tried a differnet Powder (RS 40):

saeting depths:

The bullet would kiss the land at 2,91", but the magazine allows a maximum coal 2,85"

It seems like the first shot tends to be a bit off, all groups were shot "round-robin", at least 2min between each shot.

Do you have any suggestions how to proceed? I´m expecting at least 0,78" group size..

 

[BoydAllen]

First a couple of questions. Are you required to use a no lead bullet for hunting? How are you cleaning the barrel? Are you having copper fouling issues? On the method of your workup, I would say that I generally do tests shooting each load all at once, using wind flags, trying to get them all off in the same condition. For an accurate rifle, with a decent trigger and a good rest setup, I start with two shots per load. Given the construction of your bullet, and your magazine constraint, you may want to look into information on working up loads jumping bullets that is available on the Berger bullets web site. Although it is identified as being about how to work with VLDs a Berger tech. told me that the same method works for other designs.http://www.bergerbullets.com/vld-making-shoot/
If by saying that the first shot is a bit off you mean the first shot after cleaning, that is not unusual. I generally allow myself a couple of fouling shots after cleaning before beginning serious work. Looking at the target shot with your break in load, the rifle seems to have excellent potential. I see a little of what is probably wind in the group and some vertical that some fine tuning of powder charge (small adjustment that would vary with ambient condidions) might mostly remove.

 

[frankmueller]

First a couple of questions. Are you required to use a no lead bullet for hunting?
Yes, I am.
How are you cleaning the barrel?
Patches with Shooters Choice, bronze brush, Patches. But after seating test, i did only wipe the carbon fouling with dry patches out.
Are you having copper fouling issues?
No.
On the method of your workup, I would say that I generally do tests shooting each load all at once, using wind flags, trying to get them all off in the same condition. For an accurate rifle, with a decent trigger and a good rest setup, I start with two shots per load. Given the construction of your bullet, and your magazine constraint, you may want to look into information on working up loads jumping bullets that is available on the Berger bullets web site. Although it is identified as being about how to work with VLDs a Berger tech. told me that the same method works for other designs.http://www.bergerbullets.com/vld-making-shoot/
If by saying that the first shot is a bit off you mean the first shot after cleaning, that is not unusual.

I know. But after cleaning with 3 dry patches?
I generally allow myself a couple of fouling shots after cleaning before beginning serious work. Looking at the target shot with your break in load, the rifle seems to have excellent potential.
Yes! That´s my opinion too - and that´s why i started this thread...
I see a little of what is probably wind in the group and some vertical that some fine tuning of powder charge (small adjustment that would vary with ambient condidions) might mostly remove.

Thank you!
I forgot to mention that cfe223 gave very compressed loads, no pressure signs.
I could work up with RS40 if necessary..

 

[BoydAllen]

It sounds like you might want to investigate a slightly faster powder. I could not read the information on your targets very well. What seating depths did you try? Although your primers worked well with 3031, I might try a different primer for the ball powder, depending on how consistent my velocities were. By the way, what sort of extreme spreads of velocity do you have?

 

[frankmueller]

It sounds like you might want to investigate a slightly faster powder. I could not read the information on your targets very well. What seating depths did you try? Although your primers worked well with 3031, I might try a different primer for the ball powder, depending on how consistent my velocities were. By the way, what sort of extreme spreads of velocity do you have?

cfe223, coal: 2,855"
49,3gr ES 88,6 fps
49,6gr ES 29,5fps
49,9gr ES 6,6fps
50,2gr ES 32,8fps

50gr cfe223
2,850" ES 29,5 fps
2,855" ES 9,8 fps
2,845" ES 19,7 fps
2,84" ES 19,7 fps
2,835" ES 19,7 fps

RS40, coal: 2,855"
43,5gr ES 26,2 fps
43,8gr ES 13,1fps
44,1gr ES 9,84 fps
44,4gr ES 22,9 fps
44,7gr ES 19,7 fps

44gr RS40,
2,855" ES 114,8 fps
2,84" ES 26,2 fps
2,83" ES 3,3 fps

I could try RWS Large Rifle Primers. I wanted to buy some Federal 210m, but they are not available....

 

[joshb]

Hi and welcome. I have good results with IMR 4895, Varget and 4064. They have been my top three powders for 168s. Do you have access to those powders? If you do, you should try them.

I just searched your posts. I see you live in Germany and work as a forester. Nice job! One of my favorite powders is Vihtavouri-135, for the 308. I didn't mention it because it's very pricey here in the states and the other powders give very good results. If you can find it, consider yourself lucky. My most accurate groups have come from using this powder. Good luck! PS I've been using Stihl chainsaws for 35 years. I did a good bit of logging years ago. Stihl makes the best saws!

 

[DennisH]

This worked best for me. Broughton Barrel.

 

[DennisH]

190 Bergers worked well also.
The groups should have been closer, but the rifle is capable of shooting better than I can shoot it.

 

[Zero333]

Change bullets... if you have to use non-lead bullets I would say try 130gr TTSX.

They love to jump and always print tiny groups.

 

[frankmueller]

Thank you Josh and Dennis, but first priority is making a lead-free hunting bullet shoot - season starts next sunday.
Trying these powders, or at least one of them, is not that problem - i just have to order it. But things aren´t that easy in Germany. My permission allows me to buy 20kg (44 lbs) and we´re are only allowed to have 3kg (6,6 lbs) at home, each can you buy is registred in the permission. It is nearly impossible to sell powder which does not work. It is also forbidden to send powders by mail...

 

[Zero333]

I would work with your second and third load of RS-40...

Load some at magazine length, another group 0.020" deeper, 3rd group another 0.020" deeper (0.040" deeper than magazine length), and a 4th groups another 0.020" deeper than the 3rd group.

One of those will work nicely for your hunt.

I like to make 2 groups of each seating depth (or powder charge weight if that's what I'm testing), this way I can correlate both to have a better idea.

I do not do the round robin method. Shoot each groups consecutively.

 

[joshb]

Hi. Well, given your restrictions I would try a few more loads of the last targets far left seating depth and zero your scope to that. Certainly get you into "minute of Red Stag". Good luck, Josh.

 

[frankmueller]

Change bullets... if you have to use non-lead bullets I would say try 130gr TTSX.

They love to jump and always print tiny groups.

I WAS a big fan of Barnes TTSX, but there was when nearly none components were available (I had to wait 9 months for 150 gr TTSX - and they were not quality I was used to) but I´ll give them another try.. Which powder do you recommend?

 

[frankmueller]

Hi. Well, given your restrictions I would try a few more loads of the last targets far left seating depth and zero your scope to that. Certainly get you into "minute of Red Stag". Good luck, Josh.

Will do as first aid...

 

[frankmueller]

Hi and welcome. I have good results with IMR 4895, Varget and 4064. They have been my top three powders for 168s. Do you have access to those powders? If you do, you should try them.

I just searched your posts. I see you live in Germany and work as a forester. Nice job! One of my favorite powders is Vihtavouri-135, for the 308. I didn't mention it because it's very pricey here in the states and the other powders give very good results. If you can find it, consider yourself lucky. My most accurate groups have come from using this powder. Good luck! PS I've been using Stihl chainsaws for 35 years. I did a good bit of logging years ago. Stihl makes the best saws!

Missed your edit..
N 135 is pricey here too - about $140 / 1kg..
Stihl really makes good saws - most of logging here is done by harvester, thin trees, bad quality and 80% pine and I have to spend to much time in office..

 

[joshb]

Ouch!!! That' about 40% higher than here. For the 150s, an old, wise competitor told me Benchmark was tops. You should use the search, here. There was a 3-4 page thread on the 150s about 5 months ago. Good luck, Josh

 

[frankmueller]

Ouch!!! That' about 40% higher than here. For the 150s, an old, wise competitor told me Benchmark was tops. You should use the search, here. There was a 3-4 page thread on the 150s about 5 months ago. Good luck, Josh

Thank you.

 

[frankmueller]

148 gr Hasler Ariete, 44 gr RS 40, CCI BR 2, 109 yards

Group 1:
oal: 2,855, ES:9,84 fps

Group 2:
2,83, ES 26

Group 3:
2,815, ES 22,9

Group 4:
2,795 ES 9,84

Group 5:
2,785 ES 3,28

Group 6:
2,84 ES: 6,56

Group 7:
2,825 ES: 26

It was very windy (up to 14 fps), I tried to shoot under the same conditions, but the target shows wind..

Group 2 looks good, but 5th picture of the first post shows a bigger group and lower ES.

Should I try different primers with that seating depth or play with seating depth around 2,785 (group 5)?

 

[Zero333]

Try a few different seating depths but vary them 0.020" to see a definite difference.

You can vary them 0.005" but I never found enough difference until I varied the depth by 0.020"

Sometimes certain bullets will not bughole no matter what you do. They might in some rifles and not in others.

 

[frankmueller]

I ordered a few other bullets. It´s a pity that these 148gr Hasler Arietes seem not work - they are very well made, nearly none differeces in weight or length..