limiting bullet weight for FTR competitions

[XTR]

I recognize that there are some folks that want every possible crutch to get the MA or HM card they could never get while shooting with a sling. ...

You really are showing your lack of understanding of F class. Of all the people shooting F-TR the only person that I know who has gotten his Long Range High Master card in F-TR since the target was changed to a 1MOA 10 ring in 2006 is Danny Biggs.

The following discussion is regarding F-TR and not F Open as the entire previous discussion on this thread revolves around bullet weight limits in F-TR.

I shoot with a bunch of sling shooters every week, and I agree that fundamentally there is a lot more to sling than F class. I can get anyone on the target and in the black most shots in one session of F class shooting, but when it comes to shooting MA or HM, that is far easier as a sling shooter. Getting scores in the high 180s to low 190s week in and week out in F class is a "whole 'nother story", and getting scores above 194 to get a master card is exceedingly difficult if you shoot on a range that has challenging winds. Don't miss-read that to say that I believe that sling shooting is easier to master, I don't, but once one takes the time to master it, scoring MA or HM on a 2MOA sling target is easier than doing so on an F class target, not only is the target 4x smaller (157in2 vs 628in2) but because the score required for Expert on an F class target = MA on a sling target, and MA on an F class target = HM on a sling target. I shoot with some of the best in both disciplines, sling and F class and F TR is far harder to get a MA card.

I don't shoot F-Open and I can't speak for the difficulty there; it is surely easier than in F-TR, but shooting F-TR is no shortcut to a Master card.

 

[Hombre0321]

I don't shoot F-Open and I can't speak for the difficulty there; it is surely easier than in F-TR, but shooting F-TR is no shortcut to a Master card.

I do shoot F-Open and I will speak to the difficulty between Open and F/TR, this is just my opinion, it is after all the only one I am qualified to speak on.

Before I do that I would like to make a simple comment. I tire greatly with the old and childish comments and the snobbery between Sling Shooters and F-Class shooters. It gets just plan boring hearing the same comments from Many, not all, sling shooters. Rarely do I hear the reverse from F-Class shooters. They are two completely different disciplines with different demands and skills. There is no need for this self imposed pissing contest and trying to run one down while promoting the other. Maybe someday .........

F-Open and F/TR are very hard to compare. While both fall under F-Class they also are completely different. I started shooting Open from the beginning and until recently had no desire what so ever to shoot F/TR. There is so much talk about the two however I bought a Gary Eliseo tube gun, that had been used by a sling shooter to great success. I pulled the sights and sling, installed a bag rider both front and back and a Bi-Pod. This is a very nice shooting .308 rifle. It tracks very well and is just flat out a shooter.

I have been doing a lot of shooting with this rifle, it is so different than shooting Open I am surprised. Some of the observations I have made is the .308 is a great cartridge for the Mid-Range match's, in the same breath It is a bear at 1,000 yds and is probably just marginal at that distance, it takes an accomplished shooter to excel at a 1,000 yds no matter F-Class or Sling and that is considering the difference in target size between the two. However the biggest problem I see with F/TR vs F-Open is the Bi-Pod. If you really think about this the Bi-Pod is just as good of a shooting platform as a rest up until you break the shot. Then everything changes, with the Bi-Pod the shooter is going to have to rebuild his shooting position, he or she is going to have to find a way to make elevation changes, get back on target and get ready to do it all over again for the next 20 shots.

I have found shooting F/TR to be a real challenge, I like it a lot, but it is much more challenging than Open. I even believe that when we say a shooter can move "UP" to F-Open, that is incorrect, it should be the other way around.

RS

 

[PRECISIONWELDING01]

Limit the weight that would make the game more difficult. 185 limit that would bring the wind reader out of the shooter. At a Palma match last Sunday a shooter shot a 7 mm and shot at least 3-4 shots per sling shooter shots that is not shooting no skill involved just trying to beet the wind good luck with that at orsa. Congratulations Wade on shooting first clean at 800 & 900 . But what do I know I am a sling shooter

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

I don't shoot F-Open and I can't speak for the difficulty there; it is surely easier than in F-TR, but shooting F-TR is no shortcut to a Master card.

I do shoot F-Open and I will speak to the difficulty between Open and F/TR, this is just my opinion, it is after all the only one I am qualified to speak on.

Before I do that I would like to make a simple comment. I tire greatly with the old and childish comments and the snobbery between Sling Shooters and F-Class shooters. It gets just plan boring hearing the same comments from Many, not all, sling shooters. Rarely do I hear the reverse from F-Class shooters. They are two completely different disciplines with different demands and skills. There is no need for this self imposed pissing contest and trying to run one down while promoting the other. Maybe someday .........

F-Open and F/TR are very hard to compare. While both fall under F-Class they also are completely different. I started shooting Open from the beginning and until recently had no desire what so ever to shoot F/TR. There is so much talk about the two however I bought a Gary Eliseo tube gun, that had been used by a sling shooter to great success. I pulled the sights and sling, installed a bag rider both front and back and a Bi-Pod. This is a very nice shooting .308 rifle. It tracks very well and is just flat out a shooter.

I have been doing a lot of shooting with this rifle, it is so different than shooting Open I am surprised. Some of the observations I have made is the .308 is a great cartridge for the Mid-Range match's, in the same breath It is a bear at 1,000 yds and is probably just marginal at that distance, it takes an accomplished shooter to excel at a 1,000 yds no matter F-Class or Sling and that is considering the difference in target size between the two. However the biggest problem I see with F/TR vs F-Open is the Bi-Pod. If you really think about this the Bi-Pod is just as good of a shooting platform as a rest up until you break the shot. Then everything changes, with the Bi-Pod the shooter is going to have to rebuild his shooting position, he or she is going to have to find a way to make elevation changes, get back on target and get ready to do it all over again for the next 20 shots.

I have found shooting F/TR to be a real challenge, I like it a lot, but it is much more challenging than Open. I even believe that when we say a shooter can move "UP" to F-Open, that is incorrect, it should be the other way around.

RS

Well said.

 

[Hombre0321]

Limit the weight that would make the game more difficult. 185 limit that would bring the wind reader out of the shooter. At a Palma match last Sunday a shooter shot a 7 mm and shot at least 3-4 shots per sling shooter shots that is not shooting no skill involved just trying to beet the wind good luck with that at orsa. Congratulations Wade on shooting first clean at 800 & 900 . But what do I know I am a sling shooter

This is exactly what I am saying. Why in the world do you think you would get a say? Start shooting F-Class then you have a say.

Here a proposal for you sling guys. Lets put a minimum weight on your "Slings" lets say all slings must weigh a minimum of 22 lbs 9 oz's, not the rifle but the sling. Now just how stupid would that be?? Just about as stupid as Sling shooters telling F-Class guys what they should and should not do. Want to have a say into F-Class then come on boys, come play in our sand box, until then take your toys and go home.

Roland

 

[PRECISIONWELDING01]

How about you boy come and shoot in our sand box .boy

 

[Hombre0321]

Well Welder, Been there and done that.

Roland

 

[Ahhnother8]

But i for one oppose any such limit, i have spent nearly a year fine tuning my load and my rifle for the 210's.

This is EXACTLY why there should be a limit. The quote above put another way: "I spent a LOT of time and money to develop a competitive EQUIPMENT advantage in an amateur sport/hobby." For many, that is more appealing than becoming a better marksman and wind reader. And for others, that kind of financial commitment is not even an option. Again, in an AMATEUR sport/hobby.

And in lieu of a bullet weight cap, a cartridge overall length cap would be just as effective and EASY to enforce.

No offense to the OP, and others of the same mindset. Just my perspective...

Lane

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

But i for one oppose any such limit, i have spent nearly a year fine tuning my load and my rifle for the 210's.

This is EXACTLY why there should be a limit. The quote above put another way: "I spent a LOT of time and money to develop a competitive EQUIPMENT advantage in an amateur sport/hobby." For many, that is more appealing than becoming a better marksman and wind reader. And for others, that kind of financial commitment is not even an option. Again, in an AMATEUR sport/hobby.

And in lieu of a bullet weight cap, a cartridge overall length cap would be just as effective and EASY to enforce.

No offense to the OP, and others of the same mindset. Just my perspective...

Lane

If this is a hobby for you. Don't compete!

 

[Bluto65]

XTR, not quite true my friend. Very different shooting skills from Sling to FTR or F-Open. Winds the same but that is the end of it. I know a few Slingers that are switching to FTR and F-Open and they are
suffering a bit, HA HA HA.

 

[FroggyOne2]

Bluto,

Those that you are laughing at, have you offered help to them so that what ever it is that they may be doing wrong, they may be able to improve, or are you one of those that just stand back and watch folks founder?

 

[M14AMU]

Well...the fact is that some folks don't want any more recoil than what's delivered by a Red Ryder BB gun!!

Once upon a time...long years ago I was a member of an archery club! Bare bow shooters and sight shooters were constantly bitching and griping about what should and should not be!

After a while.....the club broke up.....and NOONE SHOT!!

I've been shooting a long time; won many matches in NRA HP...Service Rifle and then over to NRA Match Rifle. I don't travel to shoot anymore....too many grandkids to spend time with and grass that needs mowing. I have my own range here at home...and have some accurate rifles and as for F/Open....a 5" diameter X ring is damn hard to hit from 1000 yards!! :'(

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Well...the fact is that some folks don't want any more recoil than what's delivered by a Red Ryder BB gun!!

Once upon a time...long years ago I was a member of an archery club! Bare bow shooters and sight shooters were constantly bitching and griping about what should and should not be!

After a while.....the club broke up.....and NOONE SHOT!!

I've been shooting a long time; won many matches in NRA HP...Service Rifle and then over to NRA Match Rifle. I don't travel to shoot anymore....too many grandkids to spend time with and grass that needs mowing. I have my own range here at home...and have some accurate rifles and as for F/Open....a 5" diameter X ring is damn hard to hit from 1000 yards!! :'(

Right, so you can imagine how much harder it is in F-TR.

 

[broncman]

For someone starting out an x is like winning the lottery, no matter the discipline!

 

[Ahhnother8]

If this is a hobby for you. Don't compete!

Am I missing something? Are any of you out there making a living at this game?

Have tried smallbore, highpower (match & service rifle), fullbore, palma, and f-tr and have not found a profitable game yet. So yes, shooting is a hobby. And that is why a rule change to significantly contain costs would be good for the sport. Palma and fullbore rules have been very effective in that regard. Match results are ALL about the skills of the shooter and not anything else. The equipment/ballistic race is getting ridiculous in F-TR. That race should be left to the open/outlaw class of F-Open. Hence the name: Open.

Lane

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

For some people, it's more than a hobby, it's a passion.

I don't really care how heavy the bullets of my competitors are, my <185 gr bullets suit me very well. I believe I have the right combination of speed and BC and I just concentrate on my shooting to get better. I also do not need any ointments at the end of a day of competition and a minimum of 7 consecutive days of shooting in Raton may very well affect the folks who shoot the very heavy bullets.

Bring it on.

 

[XTR]

If this is a hobby for you. Don't compete!

And that is why a rule change to significantly contain costs would be good for the sport. ....

Palma and fullbore rules have been very effective in that regard. Match results are ALL about the skills of the shooter and not anything else. ...

The equipment/ballistic race is getting ridiculous in F-TR. That race should be left to the open/outlaw class of F-Open. Hence the name: Open.

Lane

What cost!?

News flash, Palma participation is down, F class is up. By the way have you priced a Tube gun, sights, sling, jacket, barrels, glasses and bullets for sling lately? I know and shoot with a whole bunch of HM and M sling shooters every week. They don't spend any less than I do, not the ones putting up HM scores ever match.

Really, ridiculous? Have you actually taken the time to figure out what the advantage of the 200/215/230s is over the 185Berger? What is ridiculous is someone not in the top 20 nationally bothering with it at all.

The BC advantage is only significant if you would have placed in the top 10 in the first place. Everyone who I've talked with who has shot them says they are very sensitive to vertical and form behind the rifle and you are talking about a ballistic advantage of about 1" per full MPH at most. All that and none of them will stay in the 10-ring on a 1MPH shift if you hold center. What these bullets get you are 1 to 3 points per match assuming you are putting up Master class scores in the first place.

Can that make a difference if you are in a shoot off, sure it can, but if you are in 33rd what difference does it really make? The advantage also comes with the expense of increased recoil. The bottom line is that if you have it in your head that you are going to get beat because the other guy is running a wonder bullet then it will happen every time. For all you know he's still running the same bullet that you are.

AND...

The only way it costs you anything is if you feel compelled to buy the bullets and experiment. If you wait 12 months the info will be out there, and if you want to shoot 230s then it costs you 52¢ per 230 vs 47¢ per 185. Now if you want to run 215s/230s and 185s well, that is going to mean you need another barrel because to seat the super heavys properly you need to have a throat that is way to long for the 185s.



The problem is the mentality that you have to shoot what the winner last yr shot. Load up 185s and run with it.

 

[ShootDots]

I want to say up front that I do not shoot F-T/R, I shoot F-Open. Having said that, it strikes me funny that people are against advancements in their respective discipline! Look at it this way>>>every time a bullet manufacturer comes out with a "new design" or better "B.C." or like Lapua Scenars, now build the "L" for extreme consistency, EVERYBODY, F-T/R shooters included, rave and want the BEST possible bullet for their "rig".. So if you WANT better bullet design or whatever, WHY would you want to deny someone to get what "he / she" believes to be an advantage to their "rig" by going to a heavier bullet? You want better design etc...they want a heavier bullet! I don't see where your complaint stems from! If they could ever make a bullet so that it could be so efficient in wind bucking ability, that it cuts drift down to 1/2 or less of "normal" bullets, F-T/R shooters would want it just like F-Open guys would! Don't tell me you would not either!! So why complain about weight?

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

Well said bayou shooter, XTR and ShootDots.

 

[XTR]

...and one more thing for anyone throwing out the "Palma" comparison. Do you know know many matches in the US are shot under the international rules that limit bullet weight? I do, not too many. Look at the US highpower rules, they are the same rules that govern F class, there is no bullet weight restriction. Most of the "Palma" shooters I know shoot 185 Bergers, not a 155 or 155.5 anything. The only place I know of that bullet weight comes into play is in ICFRA competition, and then only in the Palma matches, they do not regulate bullet weight in F class either.