lets talk tolerances

[Webster]

I am a very anal person when it comes to loading. My belief is everything matters and we have it in our control to make perfect reloads if we spend the time and have the tools. I weigh to zero every load and seat every bullet to the same overall length.

I've been shooting benchrest since 1999. I wasn't always anal. It came over time as I think I learned that as little as one tenth of a gn of powder makes a difference and does .001" in seating depth. I have noticed more and more people weighing charges as time has gone on and less and less people loading at the range, at least in the Score shooting world.

So, what is the consensus on how exact is necessary for ultimate consistency? how much variation in powder charge and seating depth will a zero group tolerate ?

Pete

How do you measure your shooting skills? Just measuring everything ignores the many other skills that determine how good you are.

I read an article once by Tony Boyer. He was giving lessons to guys that wanted to be good competitors. They thought that they had purchased a quality rifle. Tony quit teaching when he got tired of telling his students their rifle wasn't good enough to compete

Travel time
hotels
problem solving
large amounts of money. Plus a backup gun.
how many barrels are you willing to buy to find an exceptional one
good trigger control
time practicing
wind reading
mirage reading
An analytical mind
steady nerves

 

[Pete Wass]

How do you measure your shooting skills?

The 250-18, 6 power Screamer I was lucky enough to shoot last year. I recognize I found a repeated condition I was able to execute on 25 times. To shoot this many exes with a 6 power scope everything with a rifle has to be as near to perfect as one can make it and one, without a tuner, had to be fortunate to load the correct load for that ambient.

Years ago, I shot a 249-23 with a 6 power rifle. The rifle shot so well I sold it to Francis Besigneul who won a Nationals with it in my presence. Back then, I thought every rifle was as good as that one. I sold it because I wanted to switch to RR instead of RL. I sold another similar rifle to Tom Benoit for the same reason, I don't like shooting RL rifles. Tom has won a lot of wood with it.

I haven't been a standout shooter over my time but I have had a few moments. I was never driven enough to win a lot. It was never what drove me. I have choked many times when I was in a position to "Win It All".

Today, I shoot to spend time with my family, the shooting community I participate in. I feel fortunate to have acquired many friends in that community and feel fortunate at age 80 to be able to continue with them. Many folks loose the ability to do it as we go forward.

My question regarding tolerances, I think has been answered, I think. Tolerances need to be maintained as absolute as anyone can do them. We have the opportunity to make very precise ammo today so why not do it? All the other parts of shooting are secondary and necessary but without a consistent basis to work with and from, much more is left to chance.

 

[AlNyhus]

I have a couple of questions for all of those who have responded to this thread. Do you own and regularly use a set of wind flags when testing loads? Do you load at the range when working up a load? Do you view a good load as a static or dynamic thing? Do you adjust for ambient conditions?

Four of precision accuracy $64 questions.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[JMayo]

I'm static with the loads I choose & the seating depth.
I'm a minimalist in my reloading but yet I have my processes that i do religiously. I Weigh to the kernal, pay close attention to seating feel and depth. I pre load every thing.
I can win score at 600 but never group.
In score matches I'd say I'm in the top 10 most of the time and I'm in the top 3 allot.
I always have flags, too many some times.
Biggest thing i think that effects me is the other really good shooters. I love competition. Not to just "best them" but to rise to their level.

Some of the best advice I've ever gotten was to measure hold by the width of a cross hair.
Dissecting that dot or the ring line & choosing where to hold according to the wind... Aim small miss small.

I can't tell you the# of times I've shot more x's than the winner shot but i shot a 9. IBS # 1 in the 249 score range.

 

[Webster]

I'm static with the loads I choose & the seating depth.
I'm a minimalist in my reloading but yet I have my processes that i do religiously. I Weigh to the kernal, pay close attention to seating feel and depth. I pre load every thing.
I can win score at 600 but never group.
In score matches I'd say I'm in the top 10 most of the time and I'm in the top 3 allot.
I always have flags, too many some times.
Biggest thing i think that effects me is the other really good shooters. I love competition. Not to just "best them" but to rise to their level.

Some of the best advice I've ever gotten was to measure hold by the width of a cross hair.
Dissecting that dot or the ring line & choosing where to hold according to the wind... Aim small miss small.

I can't tell you the# of times I've shot more x's than the winner shot but i shot a 9. IBS # 1 in the 249 score range.

Some guys cannot deal with a rifle going off on a nearby bench when they are ready to squeeze the trigger. Even anticipation of nearby guns going off bugs some guys.

 

[searcher]

Silly to you? OK. Now go back and re read what I write and think about what I said a bit. We can learn from people who achieve the greatest accuracy, stealing their methods to help us more quickly get to whatever our reloading goals are, be they hunting, plinking, or competition, but if no one ever tells you how they do what they do, you won't be able to copy it for your advantage. I wrote, as I often do, not for the posters, but for the lurkers, who want to upgrade their game, but do not know how to start, or what the order of importance is in the pursuit of accuracy.

I'm sure that wind flag use, testing loads, etc. is silly to some of the readers of this forum. You need not defend yourself.

 

[precision1]

Silly to you? OK. Now go back and re read what I write and think about what I said a bit. We can learn from people who achieve the greatest accuracy, stealing their methods to help us more quickly get to whatever our reloading goals are, be they hunting, plinking, or competition, but if no one ever tells you how they do what they do, you won't be able to copy it for your advantage. I wrote, as I often do, not for the posters, but for the lurkers, who want to upgrade their game, but do not know how to start, or what the order of importance is in the pursuit of accuracy.

Guess my point is there's been a many srbr guys got out cause of the hollier than though crowd that comes with srbr.meaning just explain what your saying no riddles needed.most people understand what you typed about wind flags etc..if you genuinely want to help people... explain add more detail.it didn't add anything to the op's subject what you said.

Everyone else added tons of information

To me it's the easiest shooting discipline to start with minimal rifle and equipment.to get started with low stress and cost......just find it funny

 

[Schippergreg]

Guess my point is there's been a many srbr guys got out cause of the hollier than though crowd that comes with srbr.meaning just explain what your saying no riddles needed.most people understand what you typed about wind flags etc..if you genuinely want to help people... explain add more detail.it didn't add anything to the op's subject what you said.

Everyone else added tons of information

To me it's the easiest shooting discipline to start with minimal rifle and equipment.to get started with low stress and cost......just find it funny

Have you competed in srbr? I ask because I sure haven’t experienced this holier than you mentality that you speak of. I’ve had some of the absolute best in the world benchrest shooters go completely out of their way to offer me advice when I’ve been struggling.

 

[BoydAllen]

Guess my point is there's been a many srbr guys got out cause of the hollier than though crowd that comes with srbr.meaning just explain what your saying no riddles needed.most people understand what you typed about wind flags etc..if you genuinely want to help people... explain add more detail.it didn't add anything to the op's subject what you said.

Everyone else added tons of information

To me it's the easiest shooting discipline to start with minimal rifle and equipment.to get started with low stress and cost......just find it funny.

Have you competed in srbr? I ask because I sure haven’t experienced this holier than you mentality that you speak of. I’ve had some of the absolute best in the world benchrest shooters go completely out of their way to offer me advice when I’ve been struggling.

Exactly. I have not found a more helpful group.

 

[BoydAllen]

Guess my point is there's been a many srbr guys got out cause of the hollier than though crowd that comes with srbr.meaning just explain what your saying no riddles needed.most people understand what you typed about wind flags etc..if you genuinely want to help people... explain add more detail.it didn't add anything to the op's subject what you said.

Everyone else added tons of information

To me it's the easiest shooting discipline to start with minimal rifle and equipment.to get started with low stress and cost......just find it funny.

Have you competed in srbr? I ask because I sure haven’t experienced this holier than you mentality that you speak of. I’ve had some of the absolute best in the world benchrest shooters go completely out of their way to offer me advice when I’ve been struggling.

Exactly. I have not found a more helpful group.

 

[JMayo]

I've found the same good ppl willing to help as soon as i got over my own feelings, acting defensive.
I got into a sport that i thought i was smart, up to date in "how to"
Only to find i didn't know squat about the real deal. As soon as i dropped my act and i started to fit in ... things clicked.

Speaking of clicks ! The reason i notice them is because I'm not in it !
If i want to be then step up !

 

[Webster]

I've found the same good ppl willing to help as soon as i got over my own feelings, acting defensive.
I got into a sport that i thought i was smart, up to date in "how to"
Only to find i didn't know squat about the real deal. As soon as i dropped my act and i started to fit in ... things clicked.

Speaking of clicks ! The reason i notice them is because I'm not in it !
If i want to be then step up !

I have been going to the range for fifty years. Only 1 guy was a jerk. He refused to follow safety rules. Don't remember anyone saying they knew everything. I met about 5 shooters that I always had pleasant conversations with.

 

[ISS]

All the SRBR shooters I met have been great folks, and ready to help a newbie out.

Example: I used to write for Precision Shooting magazine. From the early 1980's to about 2000. Russ Hayden and I were friends when he started his reloading supplies business up in Seattle. He wanted to go to the Super Shoot at Kelblys in Ohio, Problem; he had no traveling partner. Wife and I are at their house for dinner and his wife just said, he needs someone to share the driving and expenses. I worked for the USPS long haul division. Drove 500 miles a day four days a week. I love driving. When my wife heard her say that, she blurts out "ask Rich, he'll go, just to see the circus...". He drove to my house, outside of Boise. I drove the rest of the way. We are in the assembly building day before the Shoot.
The infamous Skip Otto comes up to me and asks what I am shooting. I tell him I am just there to write on a newbie's impressions. And, I did not budget the $$$, and I do not have the equipment. Skip is relentness.
He takes his raggedy Dodgers ballcap and walks all around the tables asking people to dig in their pockets and cough up their spare change. These people dig over $800 out. I try and back out, telling the crowd I do not have an SRBR rifle or components.
Alan Hall, who I thought was my friend; stands up and tells the mob he will let me use his rifle and load ammunition for me. He got squaded on Relay One, I got Relay Three, and Alan's son Larry got Relay Six. I am trapped! I now know how the Christians in early Rome felt when the first cage opened and the Lions entered the arena.
It ended well, out of just over 200 shooters in LV, 100 and 200 yds I finished 99th. I caught a condition, and shot an .043" at 100. I was 39th out of 60 shooters on that relay.

The $800+, minus my entry fee, was donated to a local children's home.

That typifies the kind of people that shoot rifle matches.

Rich

 

[Pete Wass]

I looked back through 15 years of load testing notes this past weekend. I found I have tried about everything for loads and seating depths over that time.

Perhaps 7 years ago I set out to find at what seating depth I could open my bolt without pulling a bullet in the event of a dud or an emergency. In the 30 Cal rifles I shoot 99.7 percent of the time it was .006" in for me. I then decided that would be my static seating depth and find the optimum powder load for that seating depth. I shoot a test of loads starting at say 33gn and load a string increasing charges by .2gn till the bolt handle starts to have a feel on the lift. I don't want to go beyond that. I also measure each loaded round from the ogive slope base to the butt of the case and adjust them to being exactly the same using a Stoney Point comparator head affixed to a good quality dial Vernier caliper< adjusting using a collet bullet puller.

I have one of Adam McDonalds electronic powder dispenser. I load each charge to zeros by either dumping charges or adding cornels until I have the exact load I want for the string. At that point, I feel I have done everything I can do to make as exact loads as I can humanly do to be as exact as I can be.

I have always been able to find small groups and often a great flat node that is comfortable to get into the middle of.

I was hopping to hear from others who are as particular as I am. I would like to hear what others do and think. I should have defined what I was looking for earlier I think. I know hunting loads aren't as critical as SRBR loads are.

Thanks Everyone for their answers.

Pete

 

[KMW 1954]

So, what is the consensus on how exact is necessary for ultimate consistency? how much variation in powder charge and seating depth will a zero group tolerate ?

Pete

I just started this precision target shooting about 5 years ago. Only shot pistols before that. So I only started after beginning to work at a 300yd range and became intrigued by it.

My first rifle was a used Savage Model 10 in 223 with a 4.5-14 Burris scope on it. It proved to be a fantastic base to start with and learn the basics. One of my mentors instilled in me to Start at the beginning and learn the basics and progress as you go. I did that. I also believe it made me a better shooter and provided a great learning experience. One that I could understand what I was doing and how changes effected things.He kept repeating, Work on the Big things first or as he put it, Turn the big knobs then worry about the little knobs. That philosophy in my mind paid off.

I got to the point after 4 years that I felt I took the 223 rifle and it's loads as for as I was going to. It was to the point of diminishing returns and if I wanted to stay with the 223 then I needed a much more capable rifle then the one I had.

It served it's intended purpose fully and as stated I truly believe it made me a better shooter because I had to try harder to be competitive and I still very much enjoy shooting it. When I first started I was a solid MOA shooter and today I can easily hold .5MOA targets and on very good days a consistent .3MOA out to 300yds.

So as my experience and skill level advances so does the adjustment of the "Small Knobs". I am still learning what adjustments I make are actually making a different to my scores. So I can see a difference while others not so much at this time. Which isn't to say they won't make a difference as I improve my skill level.

 

[charlie b]

I want to thank all the folks who do contribute in here. I've known only a few national lever shooting competitors and all of them have been great people and willing to share their experiences with others.

Me? I thought I was pretty good for a long time. Expert shot in the military with any weapon I chose to use (including tank cannons ). About 10 years ago I got the precision rifle 'bug'. Found out I had a LOT to learn. Even now my old habits come back to bite me. One I didn't know I had was holding precisely on target. When I ended up getting a 25x scope I noticed my sight picture wasn't as good as I thought. Can't shoot a 1/4 group if you don't hold the sights back on the same spot

 

[jwv2001]

If you think it works, it works.