lets talk tolerances

[Pete Wass]

I am a very anal person when it comes to loading. My belief is everything matters and we have it in our control to make perfect reloads if we spend the time and have the tools. I weigh to zero every load and seat every bullet to the same overall length.

I've been shooting benchrest since 1999. I wasn't always anal. It came over time as I think I learned that as little as one tenth of a gn of powder makes a difference and does .001" in seating depth. I have noticed more and more people weighing charges as time has gone on and less and less people loading at the range, at least in the Score shooting world.

So, what is the consensus on how exact is necessary for ultimate consistency? how much variation in powder charge and seating depth will a zero group tolerate ?

Pete

 

[Fred Bohl]

Back in my 55 years of SRBR my best group was 0.082 inches but none of my aggregates were very good. Nonetheless I am like you and think everything matters. However I believe that we don’t have the means to measure with sufficient accuracy.

Albert Einstein said:

"Not everything that can be measured is important and not everything that is important can be measured".

 

[Dog214]

I agree with your post. I got into loading long ago when I started shooting ground hogs on various farms. I took one at just shy of 500 yards. I was hooked at that point. I am what I would call the average Joe and have a modest income. I would love to be able to drop several thousand on a custom target rifle however that is not in the cards. That said I take very good care of what I have and, like you, have become very anal in my process. Not that having a super expensive custom rifle would eliminate the need to be it definitely would give me some added edge. Not having that is why I put every ounce of care into the loading process. Basically I do my part as best I can. Each case is prepped weighed and sorted. Each charge is done individually and every two or three gets checked twice on scale. I load as exact as my equipment can measure then check runout on the rounds. Seems to work for me. Have shot multiple .18-.20 groups in factory rifles. To answer your question on if it is actually needed I don’t really know but I do know it don’t make it less accurate.

 

[std7mag]

Benchrest is one thing.
I can see being ummm, nit picky about things.

I like to think my hunting loads are less nit picky.
But I still do things that might be considered excessive.

 

[SeabeeKen]

Back in my 55 years of SRBR my best group was 0.082 inches but none of my aggregates were very good. Nonetheless I am like you and think everything matters. However I believe that we don’t have the means to measure with sufficient accuracy.

Albert Einstein said:

"Not everything that can be measured is important and not everything that is important can be measured".

Einstein wasn't a handloader.

When i started handloading in 1974, the world record 1000 yd br record was a bit over 7”. It is now less than half that. Being anal and better rifles and components pays off

 

[BoydAllen]

The truths of different types of shooting sports are different. What matters for long range benchrest may not for short range. I have a couple of questions for all of those who have responded to this thread. Do you own and regularly use a set of wind flags when testing loads? Do you load at the range when working up a load? Do you view a good load as a static or dynamic thing? Do you adjust for ambient conditions?

 

[precision1]

The truths of different types of shooting sports are different. What matters for long range benchrest may not for short range. I have a couple of questions for all of those who have responded to this thread. Do you own and regularly use a set of wind flags when testing loads? Do you load at the range when working up a load? Do you view a good load as a static or dynamic thing? Do you adjust for ambient conditions?

Maybe it's a good idea to have short range,long range benchrest,f-class,prs, and hunting all separate along with all the other shooting disciplines.....I know I left out several

Not trying to be a wise guy but I think I somewhat see your point....

Everyone wants to participate but no one is exactly on same page most times.every discipline has its own skill set,gear and gun cleaning regiment and so on.....

But who's to say you can't learn from a deer hunter who is meticulous loading and shoots alot...not saying that's me just in general?but hey this is where it all started

I've noticed you say these things a few times.i guess your insinuating post only if the subject applies to you? Idk just wondering.


But maybe sub forums broken down more would be cool to help enhance folks skill set on main interest.

Only negative majority of us already load the same as everyone else on here.so it comes down to small nuances and learning a particular discipline for alot of us who shoot alot.maybe not loading at bench but everyone else is the same far as loading, cleaning etc. or relatively close

Maybe it would be cool to have some shooting disciplines segregated

 

[precision1]

The truths of different types of shooting sports are different. What matters for long range benchrest may not for short range. I have a couple of questions for all of those who have responded to this thread. Do you own and regularly use a set of wind flags when testing loads? Do you load at the range when working up a load? Do you view a good load as a static or dynamic thing? Do you adjust for ambient conditions?

Just post what you mean to say all this silly stuff isn't necessary.speak up

 

[BoydAllen]

Maybe it's a good idea to have short range,long range benchrest,f-class,prs, and hunting all separate along with all the other shooting disciplines.....I know I left out several

Not trying to be a wise guy but I think I somewhat see your point....

Everyone wants to participate but no one is exactly on same page most times.every discipline has its own skill set,gear and gun cleaning regiment and so on.....

But who's to say you can't learn from a deer hunter who is meticulous loading and shoots alot...not saying that's me just in general?but hey this is where it all started

I've noticed you say these things a few times.i guess your insinuating post only if the subject applies to you? Idk just wondering.


But maybe sub forums broken down more would be cool to help enhance folks skill set on main interest.

Only negative majority of us already load the same as everyone else on here.so it comes down to small nuances and learning a particular discipline for alot of us who shoot alot.maybe not loading at bench but everyone else is the same far as loading, cleaning etc. or relatively close

Maybe it would be cool to have some shooting disciplines segregated

First of all, my centerfire and reloading career began over 40 years ago, with a second hand 788 Remington and a lee loader. There was no internet and damn little information available, so it was a good thing that I could not afford to pay to have my stuff worked on, because it forced me to learn how to do it myself. From there I managed to progress to where I have some excellent shooting custom rifle of the shoot at targets variety, and the most technical aspects of reloading, The thing is I was having just as much fun in the beginning, learning from scratch as anything that I have done since, so no, I do not look down on anyone's shooting hobby. What I try to hint at is that no matter what you load for, there are things that can be learned from competition shooters that can make what you are doing work better, be more efficient, and rewarding in terms of making progress in a shorter amount of time. That was my reason for mentioning that stuff. It has helped hunters do a better job of developing loads as well as competition shooters and plinkers who get hooked on the accuracy thing.

 

[BoydAllen]

Just post what you mean to say all this silly stuff isn't necessary.speak up

Silly to you? OK. Now go back and re read what I write and think about what I said a bit. We can learn from people who achieve the greatest accuracy, stealing their methods to help us more quickly get to whatever our reloading goals are, be they hunting, plinking, or competition, but if no one ever tells you how they do what they do, you won't be able to copy it for your advantage. I wrote, as I often do, not for the posters, but for the lurkers, who want to upgrade their game, but do not know how to start, or what the order of importance is in the pursuit of accuracy.

 

[hoz53]

One reason I’m not a benchrest shooter is because I’m not that anneal not saying there anything wrong with being anneal it just don’t fit my MO. I’m one those guys that likes doing more with less. Im Just an average shooter shooting below average equipment But I’m happy

i anneal my brass

 

[hoz53]

Silly to you? OK. Now go back and re read what I write and think about what I said a bit. We can learn from people who achieve the greatest accuracy, stealing their methods to help us more quickly get to whatever our reloading goals are, be they hunting, plinking, or competition, but if no one ever tells you how they do what they do, you won't be able to copy it for your advantage. I wrote, as I often do, not for the posters, but for the lurkers, who want to upgrade their game, but do not know how to start, or what the order of importance is in the pursuit of accuracy.

i started shooting NRA smallbore under the theatre in 1968 in our high schools rifle club. i was in 7th grade. i always thought you were older than me boyd but i guess we are about the same. i admit to not using flags at times but i cannot agree it is always a waste of time not using them. more like- there are times a person should use them to get the results they are looking for. Im shooting at longer ranges now and so use the range flags most of the time. my 100 yard shooting is usually to get my dope for longer ranges and SR flags wont help me with that. of coarse i readily admit that may be because Im just to dumb. i would still like to shoot with my SR flags at 100 or 200 more though if i can fit it in. What i really want- and this is serious- i want the Boyd Allen complete handbook of Wind and Flag reading. Flag reading is a big mystery to the people who dont do it. but i dont think it would be that hard for most people to get a basic grasp of it. except for me at the range i go to i have never seen one person bring even one flag out over quite a few years. of coarse we dont have any SR national level shooters that come there either. still there are some guys with some serious equipment i see that could benefit. could 2 see ur posts boyd.

 

[Fuj]

Bottom line......"Try" not to leave anything on the table "for the equipment
your using", "and for the discipline your using it for". And don't forget......
The mental game can never be measured, but it's also on the table.

 

[R.Morehouse]

Bottom line......"Try" not to leave anything on the table "for the equipment
your using", "and for the discipline your using it for". And don't forget......
The mental game can never be measured, but it's also on the table.

Well Said Fuj.......I have suggested this little book a few times in the past. It is a quick read, and I believe it would assist anyone with their shooting, for any reason.

Regards
Rick

 

[Rat Rifle]

Bottom line......"Try" not to leave anything on the table "for the equipment
your using", "and for the discipline your using it for". And don't forget......
The mental game can never be measured, but it's also on the table.

“THINK” it in

 

[jackieschmidt]

I think “precision” flag reading the way we do in Short Range Benchrest goes out to about 300 yards.
And I also think that a shooters flag reading ability is more pronounced in Score Shooting. In Short Range Score, every little nuance in the flags can drive the bullet off the X.
Also, since you are having your move the rifle to a different position on the target on every shot, the idea of just racking 5 shots in 20 seconds goes out the window. Speed can really be your enemy.

There are times when speed counts, especially at 200 yards if you do happen to catch the condition at a constant rate and can move the rifle fast enough and get the point of ail perfect. But more times than not, taking your time, working the sighter, , and remembering your exact condition and where it is driving the bullets is the best course of action.

I NEVER shoot without my flags. I practice and test in the exact same manner as I shoot in Matches. I load at the range so I can, if I see the need, change something to keep the Rifle shooting at a competitive level.
I think in Short Range, there are a lot of things that shooters think are important but in reality are just a waste of time. One is annealing. I never anneal cases. Another is “Uniforming”primer pockets. With brands such as Lapua and Alpha, there is nothing to uniform.

Barrels are paramount. Bullets are paramount. Seating depth is paramount. Powder charge is paramount. Proper sizing is paramount.

Perfect those, and the accuracy equation is easier solved.

 

[gmr4]

Pursuing improvement is fun and that can be done regardless of equipment. There is nothing like getting a gun to shoot better and better with teaks to the rifle and attention to testing.

 

[SeabeeKen]

I think “precision” flag reading the way we do in Short Range Benchrest goes out to about 300 yards.
And I also think that a shooters flag reading ability is more pronounced in Score Shooting. In Short Range Score, every little nuance in the flags can drive the bullet off the X.
Also, since you are having your move the rifle to a different position on the target on every shot, the idea of just racking 5 shots in 20 seconds goes out the window. Speed can really be your enemy.

There are times when speed counts, especially at 200 yards if you do happen to catch the condition at a constant rate and can move the rifle fast enough and get the point of ail perfect. But more times than not, taking your time, working the sighter, , and remembering your exact condition and where it is driving the bullets is the best course of action.

I NEVER shoot without my flags. I practice and test in the exact same manner as I shoot in Matches. I load at the range so I can, if I see the need, change something to keep the Rifle shooting at a competitive level.
I think in Short Range, there are a lot of things that shooters think are important but in reality are just a waste of time. One is annealing. I never anneal cases. Another is “Uniforming”primer pockets. With brands such as Lapua and Alpha, there is nothing to uniform.

Barrels are paramount. Bullets are paramount. Seating depth is paramount. Powder charge is paramount. Proper sizing is paramount.

Perfect those, and the accuracy equation is easier solved.

^^^^^^^ Some darn good advice right here

 

[SmittyJon]

I am a very anal person when it comes to loading. My belief is everything matters and we have it in our control to make perfect reloads if we spend the time and have the tools. I weigh to zero every load and seat every bullet to the same overall length.

I've been shooting benchrest since 1999. I wasn't always anal. It came over time as I think I learned that as little as one tenth of a gn of powder makes a difference and does .001" in seating depth. I have noticed more and more people weighing charges as time has gone on and less and less people loading at the range, at least in the Score shooting world.

So, what is the consensus on how exact is necessary for ultimate consistency? how much variation in powder charge and seating depth will a zero group tolerate ?

Pete

Pete is great friend whom I've known for many years. In that time, we've had a number of in-depth discussion on this topic. And, we've agreed that every little thing counts, but ... I've always maintained that some of them count, more than others.

I'll paraphrase another post on this Forum that said:

"I do 12 things prepping my competition ammo. I know only about 1/2 of them are really necessary, but I don't know which half."

And then in Post # 17 Jackie said:

"I think in Short Range, there are a lot of things that shooters think are important but in reality are just a waste of time."

I agree with both and have stopped doing a lot things I used to do, for one - weighing cases. The idea that 1/2 a grain, more or less of brass somewhere in a case, is going to make a difference in a particular load, is absurd.

But back to Pete's question. All we can do is assemble loads to the best of our ability, with the best equipment and components we can afford, and hope there is enough built in tolerance to give us good results.

And, the best ammo in the world won't make a mediocre barrel (or a bad batch of bullets) shoot great, let alone a scope giving up, overcome poor bench manners, or a missed wind flag change.

SJ

 

[Will Henry]

When I started shooting SRBR, I frequently practiced without flags and relied heavily on mirage. Because my practice range was relatively protected and winds very light, this worked out for me. When I started shooting "F" class, flags at the ranges were pretty minimal and again, I used mirage as much as I could. Over long ranges, mirage is of less value since you can only see it over a limited range. On my 300 meter range, I set flags about every 50 yds. This range is across an open field, adjacent to what you might call complex terrain. It's not unusual for six flags to all point in a different direction. My 100 meter range is in a little hollow, with lots of trees, so the wind doesn't get to me much there.
I always felt that it was very important to get some time in under calm, clear conditions, in order to prove the rifle. You can't learn to read your flags to within a 1/4 minute if you only have a half minute rifle. With an eighth minute rifle, you can verify the effect of a given flag pattern to within an eighth. With a half minute rifle, it's unlikely you can learn to read much closer than 1/2 or worse.
Being able to make adjustments to keep the rifle in tune (an ability which I don't appear to have) is one of the big improvements in BR over the last fifty years. Successful shooters are better at finding the right load and keeping it working.
I'll confess to being just a little lost when a rifle suddenly quits performing. Some guys will immediately identify the problem as being a little above or below the sweet spot and adjust accordingly. I generally identify the problem as some sort of karmic retribution and burn some incense. My method seldom works. WH