Let's talk Lapua Brass

[sigma2chi]

I want to make a couple of observations and then ask a couple questions.

I was the guy that was having some primer pockets loosen up and a couple of you suggested I was running a hot load with 42.4 gr of H4895 and my 175gr Berger in my .308

I did some experimenting and lowered my charge and the primer pocket issue never went away.

That being said now I'm noticing my neck tension is virtually non existent. I anneal after about 5 or 6 firings. Use Templiaq 700 degree with a timer. As a matter of fact I just annealed a batch and while I was loading the rounds in I noticed the neck tension just wasn't there. Bullets went in VERY easy. I'm using a Redding die both to size and seat and yes I have the correct bushing for Lapua.

I just took a couple pieces of that same batch and seated a bullet and pulled it on an empty case to stretch the neck back out to pre-sizing dimensions. I then annealed again but this time I went about a half a second longer on the heat and instead of dropping the hot brass on a moist paper towel I dropped them in a cold glass of water to harden up the neck area a bit with the quenching. I brought them back in and sized them and reseated another bullet and had better neck tension for sure. Not like new brass but better than before.

Questions.

1. How many of you quench your hot, just annealed brass in water to harden up the metal vs. just laying them on a moist paper towel or something?

2. Worst case scenario all I am doing is shortening the life of the neck of that piece of brass a bit correct?

3. Is the old Lapua brass in the gold cardboard box "better" than the new stuff in the blue plastic bins? It seems like I'm having more of these type of issues from the newer brass in the blue bins....

 

[Steve Blair]

Quenching brass after annealing will not "harden up the neck a bit." It has no effect. Anneal your brass every firing and use a smaller bushing.

 

[284driver]

Just spitballing here, but if your neck tension is loose, have you tried a smaller bushing
What size bushing are you using?
What is your loaded neck diameter?

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

You did not say which bushing you are using; I have .335 in my Redding S-type die, I believe.

I use a Giraud annealer and simply drop the cases into a big cardboard box. The annealing process stops as soon as the case is removed from the heat source. Quenching it in water should not make any difference, except perhaps if you are heating the case too much. In that case, it may be that annealing is continuing until the case gets below the magic temperature and it was so high to begin with.

 

[broncman]

To clarify what others have said, brass does not react to quenching by hardening like steel does. Brass hardens by working...bending, stretching, sizing etc.

 

[amlevin]

Back to the issue of primer pockets loosening up in Lapua brass, I haven't had any issues with any Lapua .308 brass I've purchased. I also shoot 175 gr bullets with a similar load of H-4895 and no pressure signs although my loads with this powder are "Magazine length", not jammed.

When you anneal are you using any kind of a heat sink to keep heat away from the case heads. Even a simple deep socket works great to make sure the lower half of the case stays well below annealing temps. Overheating a case head can lead directly to loose primer pockets real quick.

For what it's worth, it wasn't the quenching that hardened the brass in your last attempt. It just doesn't happen. The only thing that hardens brass is "Working" such as sizing and expanding.

 

[sigma2chi]

I'm using a .337 bushing. Is that wrong?

 

[284driver]

What's the loaded neck diameter

 

[sigma2chi]

.338 now so I guess I can go down to a .336 bushing. I KNOW I measured that months ago when I started using Lapua brass. Guess I never took into account the next lengthening and thinning a bit. Would have thought the need to trim would have clued me in on that.

 

[CatShooter]

While it is common for some shooters to refer neck tension in thousandths ("I am using 2 thou neck tension"), it is important to understand that tension is a force, thousandths is a linear measurement.

You cannot set tension with a linear measurement, unless the neck you are moving is identical to ALL the other people's cases... which it is not.

So, if your busing is 2 thou smaller than your loaded neck, you are NOT using 2 thou neck tension, unless you are referring to the actual size of the neck, AFTER it is sized, and BEFORE it is loaded... and that tension will vary depending on how hard the neck is, which will also vary (a lot!!)

If you anneal and the neck does not have enough "grip" for you, then go to a smaller bushing - make your jumps in 2 thou steps, until you are happy.

I prefer my sized (annealed) necks to be 2 or 3 thou smaller than the loaded neck measurement.

There are a lot of guys that tell you to get a bushing 2 thou smaller than the loaded neck... that does usually NOT work out to be the bushing you will wind up using.

There is a reason that Redding makes those cute little fitted bushing cases.... if you are at this game long, you will wind up with a LOT of bushings ... it is a "Trial by firing" thing.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Agreed with Catshooter. And the reason I use a .335 is because I like a good consistent neck tension. .336 was just a little too loosy-goosy for my taste.

 

[Steve Blair]

While it is common for some shooters to refer neck tension in thousandths ("I am using 2 thou neck tension"), it is important to understand that tension is a force, thousandths is a linear measurement.

You cannot set tension with a linear measurement, unless the neck you are moving is identical to ALL the other people's cases... which it is not.

[br]
Your statement is true. The diameter difference between neck and bullet is not a measurement of potential force. That said: I don't care what other shooters are measuring or experiencing when I make reloading decisions. Since I use turned necks that are ±.0001" thickness from target dimension and anneal every firing, the diameter difference is a valid reference. It only infers tension, but applied consistently to my cases, is a repeatable method to record the setting. [br]
The same applies to some other measurements, like seating depth. I use a specific, repeatable method to establish "zero" and conduct my testing from there. My seating depth measurements, whether absolute by measuring a seated bullet or relative by citing distance from my "zero", are almost valueless to another shooter while remaining valid and repeatable for me.

 

[jlow]

I am having a hard time attributing his lack of neck tension to sizing with the wrong bushing. I can see reduced neck tension but “virtually non existant”, no. The only time I have seen this is when the the neck splits or brass is over annealed and it becomes mush.

FWIW, just because you use Templiaq 700 does not mean you used the correct annealing temperature. Remember, unless you immediately stop annealing when the Templiaq clears at the neck, all the Templiaq is telling you is how far down the case that temperature is reached. The stuff in the neck can get significantly hotter.

 

[lrgoodger]

Yep. My bet is they are over-annealed. Once that is done, you never will get neck tension back. Trouble with loose primer pockets is simply added evidence of same if your load is not seriously over-pressure.

 

[ftrrookie]

They've about covered the neck tension problem so I'll throw in my .02 on your primer problem. You wouldn't be using Winchester primers would you? I've found them to be undersized at times. If you can try some Russian or CCI primers. See if they fit better.

 

[Erik Cortina]

I think it's those darn blue boxes! Somehow the brass knows wether it's on a blue box or gold box, therefore it behaves differently!

 

[Barlow]

My research told me to use 650 tempilaq, which is what I use and have had no issues with any make of brass, including Lapua. Barlow

 

[CatShooter]

Yep. My bet is they are over-annealed. Once that is done, you never will get neck tension back.

Sure you can - use a smaller bushing and you will get more tension - and as you keep shooting, you will harden it again, and you can start all over again

 

[snakepit]

I think it's those darn blue boxes! Somehow the brass knows wether it's on a blue box or good box, therefore it behaves differently!

+1 That is funny.

 

[jlow]

Yep. My bet is they are over-annealed. Once that is done, you never will get neck tension back.

Sure you can - use a smaller bushing and you will get more tension - and as you keep shooting, you will harden it again, and you can start all over again

This only works if it is slightly over annealed or if you are a super optimist – LOL!.

I've seen it turn to mush and will probably still work for a BR shooter but nobody else. Pretty sure OP said they are “Magazine length” so my guess is he intent on shooting it out of a mag which would be a no no…