Lee Collet dies

[DanConzo]

Tunnel shooting shows potential accuracy with no wind etc. Winning 1000 yard b/r groups are now almost always much smaller than 6 or 7 inches with 10 shots. You can verify this by checking the Pa 1000 Yard B/R site. Sierra uses equipment that reflects their business, look back thru their older manuals especially when they were connected to the Leisure Group (Lyman, etc) and see what scopes in the pictures and reloading equipment they were using, which is understandable, and of course they are checking their product. Competition is pure and raw with conditions, time limits, distractions (sun, rain, snow, noise) and many other things.

 

[BoydAllen]

Bart B.
Prone shooting poses its own set of limitations that go well beyond those imposed by the equipment used, requiring a skill set that I will never possess, and I am sure that you are aware that the farther away a target is, the more influence shot to shot differences in the wind come into play. Keeping that in mind, I would suggest that you might want to take a look at the NBRSA and IBS web sites, that can be found by looking at the home page of Benchrest Central at www.benchrest.com . If you spend a little time looking around on those sites, at the short range (1-300 yd.) and long range (600 and 1,000 yd.) records, you may be surprised at the progress that has been made in the last few years. I feel safe in saying that SAAMI chambers were not used to shoot any of the current records, and that the fit of ammunition with chambers was given careful consideration when designing chambers and dies. The practice of carefully coordinating the dimension of brass, chambers, and dies is not new. It is at the core of the modern accuracy game, and is required to wring the highest level of accuracy from the best bullets, brass and barrels.

Boyd

 

[Bart B.]

Winning 1000 yard b/r groups are now almost always much smaller than 6 or 7 inches with 10 shots

I agree; they're down to around an inch; that's about 1/10th MOA. That's the best they've shot and don't shoot those all the time and may never do so again. The smallest groups Sierra's shot at 200 yards are also around 1/10th MOA; I've seen some sets of Sierra's test targets with 10 shots in the 1/10th MOA range. These tiny ones are at the the small end of the size range all groups shoot inside of. There the result of statistical luck. Few, if any, 5- or 10-shot record holders with LR BR guns and ammo ever better it; same thing for the shorter range BR records.

If one checks the LR BR records for several-group averages, they'll see they're in the 5 and 6 inch range. That means some groups (the largest ones) are typically up to around 50% larger. How much larger's hard to find out; the BR crowd does not like to make public the largest groups' sizes they shoot as their egos prevent it.

I'm one who judges accruacy on what can be counted on all the time, not way less than 1% of it. While I've put 5 shots inside 3/4 inch at 300 yards with a Garand using its post front sight and 5 shots well inside 2 inches at 1000 with aperture sights, no way would I claim those rifles' and their ammo were 1/4 MOA and 2/10th MOA respectively at those ranges.

If one's enthralled by tiny groups rarely happening, some of the 5-shot clusters fired at Lake City Army Ammo Plant with 7.62 NATO match ammo's been down around 1/3 inch (.055 MOA) at 600 yards. Such things happen when you're shooting 200 or 300 shots per test session but the average group size is about 4 inches (mean radius about 2 inches) and the biggest one's around 6. And regular service ammo's put some 5-shotters on paper about the same size.

 

[BoydAllen]

" BR crowd does not like to make public the largest groups' sizes they shoot as their egos prevent it." Perhaps you are not aware of it, but match results are published that show all groups shot, by all competitors during the match. As to your point about average accuracy, when a shooter wins a 2 or 3 gun all of the groups that he shot are averaged into that. The one piece of information that is needed to properly interpret published results is that aggregates for 2 and 300 yards are the average group sizes divided by the number of hundred of yards. For instance, if someone shot .2000 two hundred yard agg., his average group was .400. The current published NBRSA grand aggregate record for the light varmint, which was shot by Tony Boyer in 2009 is .1719. This is five five shot groups each at 100 and 200 yards. Of course all competitions are shot outdoors.

 

[DanConzo]

I'd like to add two important things here 5-shot vs 10 shot groups are very different (not simple math) for obvious reasons and competitors that shoot 4 to 7 inch 10 shot groups @ 1000 yards shoot even much tighter groups when testing their loads in uncompetitive and near ideal picked conditions (early morning, evening).

 

[jray57]

Boyd, I have a Lee collet I had made for my 6xc. I also have a Redding Full length die that I would like to use to only bump the shoulder when necessary(that expander coming back through the neck can't be good). Can the neck on the Redding die be polished/reamed so that it would not size the neck on brass used in my .275 neck chamber? Or how could this be accomplished? You mention a "body die." Is this something that would have to be custom made? If so would it not be cheaper to modify the FL die I have? Or I have in the past used the FL die without the decapper/expander and then used the Collet die with the mandrel serving as an expander. Seems to me it would be better to use the reamed FL die and then neck size with the collet.

 

[BoydAllen]

Given that you can decap with the collet die, you could simply have the FL die cut off just above the shoulder and have the remaining neck portion bored out to clear fired necks. Before you invest in this approach, have you measured the amount that the FL die reduces the diameter of fired brass at the shoulder, and at the point of largest diameter above the extractor groove? If someone makes a bushing die for your caliber, you could sell your die, buy the bushing die, and not use the bushing, which would be the same as a body die.

 

[Bart B.]

I'd like to add two important things here 5-shot vs 10 shot groups are very different (not simple math) for obvious reasons and competitors that shoot 4 to 7 inch 10 shot groups @ 1000 yards shoot even much tighter groups when testing their loads in uncompetitive and near ideal picked conditions (early morning, evening).

I agree that testing long range loads yields the best results far away from heat and winds of the middle 8 hours of the day. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to shoot some good ones like those shown below.

At 5:30 to 6:00 AM, slung up in prone with the rifle's fore end and stock toe on bags, holding it against my shoulder kept the wiggle area under 1/10th MOA on target. Adding the normal inconsistancies of prone shooting to that, the groups below are darned good in my opinion. Note the sizing dies used for both had their necks lapped out to a couple thousandths smaller than a loaded round's neck diameter; they were so modified long before full bushing dies were made for retail sale. No case prep whatsoever other than turning necks on some of the magnum cases. All resized fired cases had their shoulders set back a couple thousandths.

First one, .308 Win. using full length sized case with .337" neck diameter, about 2/1000ths bullet runout on the Sierra 155 Palma bullet and shot every 30 to 40 seconds at 800 yards. SAAMI spec chamber with .345 neck used except it's throat was a bit shorter for those short bullets. Note shots 1 and 2 of all twenty were low, but muzzle velocity with that barrel crept up a tiny bit going from clean and cold to fouled and very hot.

Second and third ones, .30-.338 Keele (.300 Win. Mag. cases full length sized in a .30-.338 die setting the shoulder back to .338 Win. point on the case). Bullet runout about .002". Chamber was standard .338 Win. SAAMI spec except for the neck which is .345" Black dots are plots (within 1/4 inch of exact on target) for 15 Sierra 190 HPMK's fired from twice fired and full length sized cases with necks turned to .012". Two sighter shots were fired first to get the group in the 10 inch X-ring at 1000 yards. The red dots are for fifteen Sierra 200 HPMK's fired from brand new cases that only had their shoulders set back to about .003" short of chamber's bolt face to shoulder length; neck walls were about .013 inch with .0016 spread. All 30 shots fired with each load alternately so I could get an idea how each load/bullet would perform in a 30-shot string. Starting with a cold barrel, shots were fired about every 30 seconds. Both 15-shot groups are under 5 inches and the 5-shot group average of all six are about 3.45 inches. Some have told me that's 30 consectutive shots in 1/2 MOA at 1000.

I don't know what the muzzle velocity was but looks to me like the 200's left a bit slower but their higher BC made 'em center close to the 190's.

 

[DanConzo]

Good shooting Bart

 

[Clod-NC]

Hi all
Pretty hot debate here gentlemen,just hope no one gets hung up about it(LOL)...Jray,if you want to make a body die out of the one you have,it's a procedure I've tried tested and adopted:take the FL die you own that was designed for your specific caliber,go to your favourite machinist and ask him to cut the top threaded portion off of it,and then to grind off(these tools are heat hardened,so a normal reamer will just won't do,at least so was I told) the neck portion underneath(that normally resizes your case necks)to, say, .257 or .260 for your 6mm,and you're all set. You have your specific body die.I did it many times,it works.For calibers of the big traditional families(06,08)you just have to get a normal FL die one caliber higher than the one you're interested in(280 for 270,6.5-06 for 25-06,ETC)you can order these from Lee they're pretty cheap and as good as any for that purpose.Hope it helps.Thanks to all for the interesting posts.

 

[DanConzo]

I don't see a hot debate here at all, just a discussion.

 

[XTR]

Lee shows $150 for a die to be made.. thats right up there with the best of them. I was hoping you would reply as you give great advice and are very knowledgable.

I just received my Lee custom collet dies. The wait was 26 calender days. The fee is $60.00. $8.40 shipping. This lag time is during what would be considered the height of the shooting season, target and aspiring hunters developing loads for the fall deer and big game seasons. I requested in writing that I didn't need the bullet seater die. They sent it anyways, with the note that it is included.

WOW, you mean you don't stand around waiving money at them for 6 months like most everything else in this industry!? That's refreshing.

 

[ReedG]

I have several Redding body dies and they are a good investment ... here is a pretty good look at one.

 

[Bart B.]

take the FL die you own that was designed for your specific caliber,go to your favourite machinist and ask him to cut the top threaded portion off of it,and then to grind off(these tools are heat hardened,so a normal reamer will just won't do,at least so was I told) the neck portion underneath(that normally resizes your case necks)to, say, .257 or .260 for your 6mm,and you're all set. You have your specific body die.

Seems to me that if you leave most of the sizing die's shoulder in place, you end up with a body & shoulder die that sizes the body diameter and also repositions the shoulder. It would have to be adusted such that it set the shoulder either back some amount or not at all. If it's set to not touch the shoulder, it would size the case like an unaltered die does when set to partial neck size; a setup that typically moves the shoulder forward some amount. I've seen one instance where someone used a .358 Win. full length sizing die on .308 Win. cases ending up with a ridge on it's shoulder where it didn't touch the .358 sizing die.

Years ago, folks made body dies for belted magnum cases by cutting off a standard full length sizing die just below the shoulder and 1/8 inch or so above the belt clearance section then squared up both ends. That "body die" had no shoulder and would be used on belted cases either before or after a fired one was resized with a standard full length sizing die with its neck lapped out to .002" smaller than a loaded round's neck diameter. That body die would be set to size the case body down to original new case diameter all the way to the front edge of the belt. Doing this got rid of that ridge right in front of the belt that happened when a new case was fired, pushed back against the bolt face at peak pressure and the body between the belt's front and the headspacing ridge in the chamber would expand. That ridge, a few thousandths in length, would interfere with the back end of the resized case seating exactly the same way for each shot and accuracy suffered. Geting rid of it made the case like new ones; no interference and best accuracy was attained. Virtually all of the top long range shooters using belted magnums winning matches and setting records did this starting back in the early 1960's. Nowadays, a collet die's available to do the same thing on belted cases and's better as it doesn't move brass back into the belt area; www.larrywillis.com.

 

[BoydAllen]

Years ago, I was asked to come up with the specifications for a tight necked, shorter throated 300 Weatherby. After It was built, I helped do the pressure testing, since there was no data available for that configuration. We loaded at the range, with a single case, that got pounded with pressure levels that were carefully worked up to but quite high. We had set up the neck diameter so that the correct neck tension worked out with a factory neck die. After the test, the case would chamber with no effort. This was somewhat surprising, given the pressure. We were quite a bit over the loading manual maximum. I attribute it to a couple of things. The chambering job was done with careful attention to headspace, so there was very little clearance between the front of the belt part of the chamber and the case, and although clearances from the shoulder forward were tight, I used the factory chamber body diameter specifications, having learned from a friend's problems when he had a chamber that was too close of a fit on new brass. In addition to having the tight neck, the throat length was set up so that 180 gr. hunting bullets could be seated slightly into the rifling, at a length that would fit into and feed from the magazine. This was in a custom stocked and barreled, German made Mk V. I did not recommend the configuration, but since the fellow that it was built for, is a very careful reloader, we did it, and I made sure that the testing was properly done. I think that the reason that some have had trouble with belted cases may be that there rifles were chambered with generous headspace (bolt face to front of belt) and because they followed die makers instructions to set the die to touch the shell holder, which would lead to separations.

 

[jray57]

Reason I was thinking about using the FL Redding I have is that I resized a new case(yes it did set the shoulder just a little)and used that to set the headspace using a .002 spacer on the head. While Redding does have a 6xc body die, I wonder how close it's internal dimensions are to the FL die. Could always reset the headspace off the body die I guess.

 

[Bart B.]

Reason I was thinking about using the FL Redding I have is that I resized a new case(yes it did set the shoulder just a little)and used that to set the headspace using a .002 spacer on the head. While Redding does have a 6xc body die, I wonder how close it's internal dimensions are to the FL die. Could always reset the headspace off the body die I guess.

Have you considered using Redding's shell holders that come in .002" height steps? Using one with the die bottom stopping on it when the ram tops out will aid in keeping full length sized case headspace very constant. Otherwise, I learned that tumbling cases in a foam lined drum puts lube on them more uniformly and that keeps sized case headspace spread under .002"

Send email to Redding asking about their die body dimension differences.

And David Tubb sells his own 6XC full length sizing dies that (I think) can be adjusted for how much the body diameters are reduced.

 

[memilanuk]

I'd love to see that done under actual match conditions (not 0530 AM) today on an LR F-Class or BR target... since its *so* easy.