Just for info, the "pot metal" (aluminum) top insert is by design to keep from damaging the die when it is turned down too far. The concept is that it will just strip the aluminum threads instead of damaging something else. And, yes, I've seen guys do this -- some of them to my die they had borrowed.
Lee Collet dies
- Thread starter Rtheurer
- Start date
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Not to disagree with anyone's observations, or experiences, I do take mild exception to the use of pot metal to describe a Collet Die's cap. All of mine appear to have been machined from solid stock, rather than cast from some weaker, lower melting point alloy. This is a small thing, but I think that it is a distinction worth making.
Reading of Reed's friend's misuse of a borrowed die, made me smile. More than a couple of decades back ( I think) I mushroomed the bottom of a collet (The die was mine.) by repeatedly over toggling the die. This was before I fully grasped the idea that modifying or changing the mandrel is the proper way to increase neck tension when using one of these dies. The good news is that I learned from my mistake, and the next time I needed more neck tension I ordered a smaller mandrel.
Reading of Reed's friend's misuse of a borrowed die, made me smile. More than a couple of decades back ( I think) I mushroomed the bottom of a collet (The die was mine.) by repeatedly over toggling the die. This was before I fully grasped the idea that modifying or changing the mandrel is the proper way to increase neck tension when using one of these dies. The good news is that I learned from my mistake, and the next time I needed more neck tension I ordered a smaller mandrel.
On full length sizing the Redding Body dies are good but the RCBS trim/form dies (if available as stock for a particular caliber, regular price not custom like the 06 etc, but the 6.5/284 will cost you CUSTOM) are also very good as they size the neck only a little (approximately .002" larger than normally needed to have .002" neck tension) and act as a guide for the case to square the shoulder up to the shoulder contour and keep it straight. The Redding trim/form dies are also good for certain chambers as they only chamber size the case (not FL) and still push the shoulder usually w/o lubing the case. The RCBS FL Die with inline reamer is also a dandy tool but expensive, about $100 for the die and $75 for the reamer.
If one of you guys that don't like the looks of the collet dies happen to try their seating die that comes with the collet neck sizer if you buy the set, I don't know what they call it Dead Nuts or something with a floating seating stem then go to the range and do real well, you can always tell your buddies that you used your Wilson or Redding straight line seater, they don't need to know.
Hi folks
Very interesting thread;I personnally use your formula Boyd(Collet die & body die),but since I never ordered Redding dies,I use FL dies one caliber higher than the case I want to work on,or have my machinist grind the neck portion of the die I want to make a body die out of when I can't find a bigger one(7x64 for instance);I suggest that anyone who wants to order Lee products check FS Reloading prior to placing an order;their prices and service are really good.As to the general quality of the die,I can't understand the complaints from some people about those dies being cheap,or poorly made,mine are all very neat in every aspect of their craftmanship,especially considering their price...I have a problem to believe someone could blow the aluminum top out of them by applying too much force on the press leverage,wow!!!Maybe they should compete in hammer throw of weight lifting...Boyd,I have a question for you:I only neck size(I only hunt,I don't punch paper )and after 2 or 3 reloads I know I have to bump back the case shoulder,but how can I set my die to do the minimum required,I understand from this forum and others,that screwing the die down until it touches the shellholder is too much,what would you suggest?Thanks in advance and good and safe shooting to all.
Very interesting thread;I personnally use your formula Boyd(Collet die & body die),but since I never ordered Redding dies,I use FL dies one caliber higher than the case I want to work on,or have my machinist grind the neck portion of the die I want to make a body die out of when I can't find a bigger one(7x64 for instance);I suggest that anyone who wants to order Lee products check FS Reloading prior to placing an order;their prices and service are really good.As to the general quality of the die,I can't understand the complaints from some people about those dies being cheap,or poorly made,mine are all very neat in every aspect of their craftmanship,especially considering their price...I have a problem to believe someone could blow the aluminum top out of them by applying too much force on the press leverage,wow!!!Maybe they should compete in hammer throw of weight lifting...Boyd,I have a question for you:I only neck size(I only hunt,I don't punch paper )and after 2 or 3 reloads I know I have to bump back the case shoulder,but how can I set my die to do the minimum required,I understand from this forum and others,that screwing the die down until it touches the shellholder is too much,what would you suggest?Thanks in advance and good and safe shooting to all.
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
Finally got through to Lee today; ordered two under-sized mandrels, estimated delivery time 4-6 weeks. Forgot to ask what the cost was going to be; looks like they billed me $14.62 (so far). If thats what it ends up totaling, thats more than fair in my opinion.
As for the 'pot metal' comment that got some folks worked up... sorry, I stand by the sentiment: I sincerely wish someone made a 'nicer' version out of better materials. It may not 'need' to be made out of better stuff; for that matter you could make hand dies like L.E. Wilson neck dies and seaters out of aluminum too... I'd still rather have something a little more solid feeling. The cap being able to 'blow out' and 'protect' other parts of the press setup may work that way in practice... but I highly doubt it was a design consideration.
I've used these dies off and on for probably 10 years or so... when they work, they work great. Still have mixed feelings about them... usually right after I get comfortable using them and trusting them only to have it 'eat' another case. And yes, I've been through every dang recommended fix and solution available on the Interweb, several times over. One die I just gave up on; every 25-30 rounds I had to pull it apart and clean/polish the collet and mandrel or else it would start feeling 'sticky' and shortly thereafter shove a case neck back inside the shoulder. Still have it around here somewhere as a paperweight - and a reminder. The current one works pretty dog-gone well... but even it has bit me once or twice. I've gotten a lot more 'sensitive' when using them, which helps avoid the truly disastrous encounters.
Most recent case destruction story with a Lee Collet die wasn't really the dies fault... mostly. Particularly *bad* batch of Winchester .308 brass, using the collet die as a mandrel to open the necks up to something approaching round. Noticed some had milk-bottle shaped - as in not-fully-formed - shoulders. Didn't think much about it until on about the third one, the case stuck in the die. Mounted in my Co-Ax, there really wasn't a good or easy way to extract things. Extremely frustrated, I gave the handle a rather large (and violent) shove, and things came apart. 3/4 of the case came down with the shell plate, and the neck and shoulder were pretty much press-fitted to the mandrel up in the collet - the case had been literally ripped apart (I said it was a *large* shove...). Turns out that with the unformed shoulders, the case body and necks were too long... and extended up past where they should, and ended up kind of flaring over the top of the collet fingers, creating a mechanical lock. *That* was fun, getting that thing apart and the pieces of brass out. Like I said... not the collet dies fault... but I doubt the same thing would have happened in a regular die either.
As for the 'pot metal' comment that got some folks worked up... sorry, I stand by the sentiment: I sincerely wish someone made a 'nicer' version out of better materials. It may not 'need' to be made out of better stuff; for that matter you could make hand dies like L.E. Wilson neck dies and seaters out of aluminum too... I'd still rather have something a little more solid feeling. The cap being able to 'blow out' and 'protect' other parts of the press setup may work that way in practice... but I highly doubt it was a design consideration.
I've used these dies off and on for probably 10 years or so... when they work, they work great. Still have mixed feelings about them... usually right after I get comfortable using them and trusting them only to have it 'eat' another case. And yes, I've been through every dang recommended fix and solution available on the Interweb, several times over. One die I just gave up on; every 25-30 rounds I had to pull it apart and clean/polish the collet and mandrel or else it would start feeling 'sticky' and shortly thereafter shove a case neck back inside the shoulder. Still have it around here somewhere as a paperweight - and a reminder. The current one works pretty dog-gone well... but even it has bit me once or twice. I've gotten a lot more 'sensitive' when using them, which helps avoid the truly disastrous encounters.
Most recent case destruction story with a Lee Collet die wasn't really the dies fault... mostly. Particularly *bad* batch of Winchester .308 brass, using the collet die as a mandrel to open the necks up to something approaching round. Noticed some had milk-bottle shaped - as in not-fully-formed - shoulders. Didn't think much about it until on about the third one, the case stuck in the die. Mounted in my Co-Ax, there really wasn't a good or easy way to extract things. Extremely frustrated, I gave the handle a rather large (and violent) shove, and things came apart. 3/4 of the case came down with the shell plate, and the neck and shoulder were pretty much press-fitted to the mandrel up in the collet - the case had been literally ripped apart (I said it was a *large* shove...). Turns out that with the unformed shoulders, the case body and necks were too long... and extended up past where they should, and ended up kind of flaring over the top of the collet fingers, creating a mechanical lock. *That* was fun, getting that thing apart and the pieces of brass out. Like I said... not the collet dies fault... but I doubt the same thing would have happened in a regular die either.
Actually, Clod, I sat and watched a friend do it with a Rockchucker, when he wouldn't take my advice on how to set the die, and it wasn't even difficult.
Monte, in a phone conversation with Richard Lee a dozen or so years ago, he told me the aluminum cap was a safety design. I have no reason to doubt him. He has used me very well over the years and I appreciate lots of his equipment. The aluminum cap has protected two of my dies that were loaned and damaged and I was happy to get them back by simply ordering an inexpensive aluminum cap. I hope the new mandrels work well for you. One of these days I'm going to try making one in my mini-lathe, but ordering them has worked fine for me.
Monte, in a phone conversation with Richard Lee a dozen or so years ago, he told me the aluminum cap was a safety design. I have no reason to doubt him. He has used me very well over the years and I appreciate lots of his equipment. The aluminum cap has protected two of my dies that were loaned and damaged and I was happy to get them back by simply ordering an inexpensive aluminum cap. I hope the new mandrels work well for you. One of these days I'm going to try making one in my mini-lathe, but ordering them has worked fine for me.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
I believe in measuring shoulder bump, not setting it by feel. Get one of the Hornady (formerly made by Stoney Point) tools that has a series of sleeves and an adapter to mount them on your caliper. http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Load-Headspace-Kit-With-Body-1-Each/
(You may be able to beat the price somewhere else.)Select a case that chambers tight, knock out the primer, or reseat it below flush, and measure it with the proper setup for that caliber. I leave my caliper zeroed normally, since we are only looking for the difference of two measurements. Then you can start with your die backed off perhaps the thickness of a dime, and sneak up on the measurement that you need, which should be one to two thousandths less than the tight fitting fired case. If you are on a budget, there are workarounds that you can jury rig, but I believe that good tools are worth having. Also, I prefer Hornady's approach to Sinclair's, because it deals with differences in shoulder angle better (IMO). I ripped through this pretty quickly so ask if you need clarification.
Boyd
(You may be able to beat the price somewhere else.)Select a case that chambers tight, knock out the primer, or reseat it below flush, and measure it with the proper setup for that caliber. I leave my caliper zeroed normally, since we are only looking for the difference of two measurements. Then you can start with your die backed off perhaps the thickness of a dime, and sneak up on the measurement that you need, which should be one to two thousandths less than the tight fitting fired case. If you are on a budget, there are workarounds that you can jury rig, but I believe that good tools are worth having. Also, I prefer Hornady's approach to Sinclair's, because it deals with differences in shoulder angle better (IMO). I ripped through this pretty quickly so ask if you need clarification.
Boyd
Hi again gentlemen
Boyd,if I get you right,to set my die right all I have to do is back it up about one full turn(dime thick),and then try to get where I want by samll increments,until the case will chammber smoothly.Thanks so much,I've always been somewhat puzzled by that shoulder bump operation,I'll try it as soon as I can.Dan,not only the universal decapper has this device,all of Lee FL sizers are made this way,so that you avoid braeking the decapping pin if you fall on a stubborn primer or no primer at all(Berdan)...I have tried using my collet dies lately with a rockchucker I had just bought,and man is that press strong!!!I will probably have to change all my settings because if you work the press lever fully,then the case necks are all imprinted by the collet,much more so than with my Lee challenger press.I doubt it will have a bad influence on accuracy,but it really looks awkward.By the way,I've thinned most of my collet mandrels with abrasive(400 or 600 grit) and a power drill,it works all right but it's quite tedious to control the process to the exact thickness you need,so go slow.Good shooting to all.
Boyd,if I get you right,to set my die right all I have to do is back it up about one full turn(dime thick),and then try to get where I want by samll increments,until the case will chammber smoothly.Thanks so much,I've always been somewhat puzzled by that shoulder bump operation,I'll try it as soon as I can.Dan,not only the universal decapper has this device,all of Lee FL sizers are made this way,so that you avoid braeking the decapping pin if you fall on a stubborn primer or no primer at all(Berdan)...I have tried using my collet dies lately with a rockchucker I had just bought,and man is that press strong!!!I will probably have to change all my settings because if you work the press lever fully,then the case necks are all imprinted by the collet,much more so than with my Lee challenger press.I doubt it will have a bad influence on accuracy,but it really looks awkward.By the way,I've thinned most of my collet mandrels with abrasive(400 or 600 grit) and a power drill,it works all right but it's quite tedious to control the process to the exact thickness you need,so go slow.Good shooting to all.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
That's not what I wrote. 
I said measure, using a tight case for comparison. I think that it is an important distinction. Just for reference, with a 14 pitch thread. one full turn of the die moves it vertically in the press about .071. Another way to set a Collet die, which is the way that Lee tells you to, is to set the die so low that it will not allow the press to quite reach the top of its stroke, and lean on the handle with about the same force for each case. I think that they give directions to do it this way because of the tendency for users to go overboard on the amount of toggle, which results in ridges on the case neck. We have a tendency to overdo things. The least amount of toggle that you can feel is just right. If you need the neck smaller, change the mandrel, I just did a batch of .22-250 cases, with collet and body dies, and there are no ridges on the necks, and they have enough neck tension. Also, I should mention that a friend sets his die by the book, and tries to press on the handle of his Rockchucker with about 25# of force, and he gets good results, so there is more than one way to do this, and the "factory" way is less likely to cause problems, compared to too much toggle.
I said measure, using a tight case for comparison. I think that it is an important distinction. Just for reference, with a 14 pitch thread. one full turn of the die moves it vertically in the press about .071. Another way to set a Collet die, which is the way that Lee tells you to, is to set the die so low that it will not allow the press to quite reach the top of its stroke, and lean on the handle with about the same force for each case. I think that they give directions to do it this way because of the tendency for users to go overboard on the amount of toggle, which results in ridges on the case neck. We have a tendency to overdo things. The least amount of toggle that you can feel is just right. If you need the neck smaller, change the mandrel, I just did a batch of .22-250 cases, with collet and body dies, and there are no ridges on the necks, and they have enough neck tension. Also, I should mention that a friend sets his die by the book, and tries to press on the handle of his Rockchucker with about 25# of force, and he gets good results, so there is more than one way to do this, and the "factory" way is less likely to cause problems, compared to too much toggle.Clod--I know about the Lee dies but thanks for refering to that. I don't toggle over in my Rockchucker press with the collet die and I try to use the same amount of pressure everytime, if you don't get the proper neck tension you can always turn the case 180 degrees and size again, believe me it works. I know people that do toggle over and shoot very good, I just didn't like doing it with all that leverage. I don't want to butt in on pushing the shoulder to the proper headspace question that you ask Boyd which he took care of but Wilson makes Case Headspace gauges for a lot of calibers and is much simpler to use if you're just getting into this. Keep in mind also that how much you push the shoulder and what type of rifle and what the rifle is for means alot, for instance if it's for hunting and you're using a magazine you may want to push them a little more than for target work, you can always feed them thru your magazine to make sure. Good Luck
As for "adjusting" neck tension, the mandrels are cheap. Get one or two extra's (I think they're around $4 ea) and then just turn them to the diameter you want. I did mine by chucking it up in a drill press and polishing it to the dia. I wanted.
The fact that they give one lower TIR is good but not having to use lube is almost worth it in itself.
If others do start to make the collet die chances are they won't make it better, just add whatever they feel their Brand Name is worth to the selling price.
The fact that they give one lower TIR is good but not having to use lube is almost worth it in itself.
If others do start to make the collet die chances are they won't make it better, just add whatever they feel their Brand Name is worth to the selling price.
Hi folks
Thanks Boyd and Dan;Boyd of course I'm gonna try and follow your recommendations step by step,it's the general trend I was after;I never said I was toggling over with the Rockchucker,actually I followed Richard Lee's advice for presses other than his brand,screwing the Collet die another turn in,to avoid just that,but just the simple leverage force of it is way too much as opposed to what the Challenger press is capable of,and since I'm new to this sensation of power,I'll have to learn how to cope with it,and find a way to reproduce the pressure that machine requires to work properly,thus avoiding to crush everything,hopefully....I'll keep you updated.As to ordering special mandrels from Lee,why not,but here in New Caledonia,with postage fees,customs fees,delays,everything gets so tedious and expensive that you're better off fixing things yourself whenever possible.I'll keep you informed anyway. Thanks to all,sorry for sort of hijacking that thread...
Thanks Boyd and Dan;Boyd of course I'm gonna try and follow your recommendations step by step,it's the general trend I was after;I never said I was toggling over with the Rockchucker,actually I followed Richard Lee's advice for presses other than his brand,screwing the Collet die another turn in,to avoid just that,but just the simple leverage force of it is way too much as opposed to what the Challenger press is capable of,and since I'm new to this sensation of power,I'll have to learn how to cope with it,and find a way to reproduce the pressure that machine requires to work properly,thus avoiding to crush everything,hopefully....I'll keep you updated.As to ordering special mandrels from Lee,why not,but here in New Caledonia,with postage fees,customs fees,delays,everything gets so tedious and expensive that you're better off fixing things yourself whenever possible.I'll keep you informed anyway. Thanks to all,sorry for sort of hijacking that thread...
How many folks posting to or just reading this thread realize that a full length sized bottleneck case headspacing on its shoulder will center perfectly up front in the chamber when it's fired, regardless of how much smaller in diameter its body is than the chamber body? And the clearance around the case neck to the chamber neck doesn't matter at all; a lot or a little; it's centered. And a lot of such cases center perfectly when the bolt's closed and before they're fired. Even with several thousandths head clearance (difference between chamber headspace and case headspace), they center perfectly every time.
There's no difference between neck only, partial neck sized or full length sized such bottleneck cases in their ability to center perfectly up front in the chamber when fired.
There's no difference between neck only, partial neck sized or full length sized such bottleneck cases in their ability to center perfectly up front in the chamber when fired.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
If you size a case so that the diameter of the body is greatly reduced below the dimensions of the fired brass, because the thickness of the brass is not even all the way around the case, depending on how uneven the thickness is, and the degree of sizing taking place, cases will become what Creighton Audette called "banana shaped" This condition, depending on the degree, will adversely affect accuracy. The folks that load the most accurate ammunition, for their competition bolt rifles that are shot from benches, take pains so that their dies, chambers, and brass are coordinated in size. The FL dies hardly move brass. A fellow can say what he wants, but the real story is told in the match results, and what was done to get there.
Clod-NC said:
The four equally spaced ridges that often appear on the neck of a collet sized case are called gather marks by Lee. These are a perfectly normal result of the collet sizing operation and do not have any negative consequences on accuracy. These ridges are evidence that the neck has been sized properly. Obviously the gather marks on a neck that has been sized down by .007'' will be more pronounced than a neck that has been sized back by only .002''. If the die has been set up properly for the press involved, there should be no difference in the look of the neck after sizing regardless of the press that was used.
From what I've seen in the records published for long range benchrest matches, folks using full length sized fired cases end up with ammo shot in long range matches fired prone that's just as accurate as what the benchresters use. The best of both competition disciplines' ammo shoot under 6 to 7 inches at 1000 yards. And the smallest series of 10-shot groups ever fired at 600 yards I know of were shot with full length sized cases fired in a SAAMI spec chamber. . . .all from a pre '64 Win. M70 back in 1971.BoydAllen said:
I've no idea what's meant by "coordinated in size" for dies, chambers and brass. That's a new set of words for me.
I know Sierra Bullets uses Redding Full Bushing or standard full length sizing dies to reload their fired cases used to test their products for accuracy. Their best match bullets shoot no worse than 1/4 MOA at 200 yards from cases resized in Redding Full Bushing dies. I doubt anyone shoots their bullets any more accurate with any type of sizing die used on fired cases.
The above aside, benchresters do get smaller groups up to 300 yards with both neck only and full length sizing; Speedy Gonzales full length sizes a lot of his cases 'cause they produce the best accuracy. And bullets these short range shooters use are typically better than what's shot at long range. But then accuracy for any given bullet degrades with range caused by the spread in muzzle velocity and ballistic coefficients for each one as well as subtle winds down range. And all bullets from all barrels regardless of how the case was made all leave the muzzle at zero MOA.
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