Lee collet die vs Whidden f/l bushing die

[tcoz]

I’m addressing this question to people who currently use or have used a Lee Collet die.

I’m reloading .308 for a Ruger Precision Rifle and a Savage 10FCP-SR (Lapua brass for the Savage and FGMM brass for the RPR). I’ve been using a Whidden f/l bushing sizing die every loading with acceptable results. I also anneal every loading. I don’t turn necks and runout has been in the .002 to .004 range. I use a Hornady Concentricity Tool to measure it and correct the .004 rounds to .002 or under.

I have an unused Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die and I’m considering changing my procedure to removing the neck bushing from the Whidden die and using it as a body die as needed while using the Lee Collet die every time. My reasons for doing this would be to decrease runout to <.002 and also not have to lube cases every loading.

I’m fully aware that the best thing to do is to try it and see what kind of runout I get but I'd first like to hear from Collet die users and especially from people who have used it but no longer do.

What are your thoughts?
Thanks in advance.

 

[Davidb187]

You'll be adding 1 step for sizing but for me it work on some if my rifles. You'll need to order a couple oversize mandrels from Lee ( i've got two .308 n.s die: one with a .304 mandrel and the other .306 so you'll have to check before ordering.)
People's complaining about the 2 steps sizing but when using a f.l.bushing die and a expander after to me it's 2 steps too.

 

[JohnKielly]

The Lee is good IMO. I use it exclusively for calibers Lee makes the dies for, but it's only as good as you set it up. Take a look at the Lee collet die bible for me:

Using The Lee Collet Die.
I started using Lee collet dies when they first came on the market and have found that they are very good for the purposes for which they were designed .
I have found that there is a lack of understanding of how to use the die properly and as a result people fail to see the advantages that the die can deliver over standard neck sizing dies.
This is not the fault of the product , it is just a lack of understanding of how the die works and what it will feel like when you operate the press correctly.
Standard dies use a neck expanding ball on the decapping rod and size by extruding the neck through a hole and then drag the expander ball back through the inside neck.
The collet die achieves neck sizing by using a split collet to squeeze the outside of the case neck onto a central mandrel which has the decapping pin in it’s base .
One advantage is that there is no stretching or drawing action on the brass.
The inside neck diameter is controlled by the diameter of the mandrel and to some extent by the amount of adjustment of the die and the pressure applied to the press .
This results in less misalignment than can occur in standard dies because of any uneven neck wall thickness in the cases .
Cases will last longer in the neck area and require less trimming. If cases have very uneven neck wall thickness then this can cause problems for the collet die they definitely work smoother and more accurately with neck turned cases but it is not essential.
When you first receive the die unscrew the top cap and pull it apart check that everything is there also that the splits in the collet have nothing stuck in them then inspect the tapered surface on the top end of the collet and the internal taper of the insert to make sure there are no metal burs that might cause it to jamb.
Next get some good quality high pressure grease and put a smear onto the tapered surface of the collet .
Put it back together and screw it into the press just a few threads for now . The best type of press for this die is a press of moderate compound leverage that travels over centre .
Over centre means that when the ram reaches its full travel up it will stop and come back down a tiny amount even though the movement on the handle is continued through to the stop .
eg. is an RCBS Rockchucker.
This arrangement gives the best feel for a collet die sizing operation.
Place the shell holder in the ram and bring the ram up to full height then screw the die down until the collet skirt just touches on the shell holder , then lower the ram .
Take a case to be sized that has a clean neck inside and out and the mouth chamfered and place it in the shell holder.
Raise the ram gently feeling for resistance if none , lower the ram.
Screw the die down a bit at a time .
If you get lock up ( ram stops before going over centre) before the correct position is found then back it off and make sure the collet is loose and not jammed up in the die before continuing then raise the ram feeling for any resistance , keep repeating this until you feel the press handle resist against the case neck just at the top of the stroke as the press goes over centre and the handle kinder locks in place .
This takes much less force than a standard die and most people don’t believe any sizing has taken place .
Take the case out and try a projectile of the correct caliber to see how much sizing has taken place.
If it’s still too loose adjust the die down one eighth of a turn lock it finger tight only and try again .
Once the die is near the correct sizing position it takes very little movement of the die to achieve changes in neck seating tension .
This is where most people come undone , they move the die up and down too much and it either locks up or doesn’t size at all .
It will still size a case locking it up but you have no control over how much pressure is applied and some people lean on the press handle to the point of damaging the die. A press like the RCBS Rockchucker , that goes over centre each time gives you a definite stopping point for the ram and the pressure that you apply .
There is a small sweet spot for correct collet die adjustment and you must find it , once found , how sweet it is ! Advantages : With a press that travels over centre it is possible to adjust the neck seating tension within a very limited zone. No lubricant is normally required on the case necks during sizing .

If you still cant get enough neck tension to hold the bullet properly for a particular purpose then you will have to polish down the mandrel.
Be careful poilishing the mandrel down and only do it a bit at a time as a few thou can be removed pretty quickly if you overdo it.
You can't get extra neck tension by just applying more force. The amount of adjustment around the sweet spot is very limited and almost not noticable without carrying out tests.
For example , to go from a .001 neck tension to a .002 or .003 neck tension you would be talking about polishing down the mandrel.

There are some other advantages but I will leave you the pleasure of discovering them .
One disadvantage that I have found with the collet die is that it needs good vertical alignment of the case as it enters the die or case damage may result so go slowly.
Also some cases with a very thick internal base can cause problems with the mandrel coming in contact with the internal base before the sizing stroke is finished.
If pressure is continued the mandrel can push up against the top cap and cause damage . If you are getting lock up and cant get the right sizing sweet spot, then check that the mandrel is not too long for the case you can place a washer over the case and onto the shell holder and size down on that.
It will reduce the length of neck sized and give the mandrel more clearance. If it sizes Ok after adding the washer then the mandrel could be hitting the base.
This is not a usually problem once you learn how to use them .
The harder the brass is the more spring back it will have so very hard brass will exhibit less sizing than soft brass because it will spring away from the mandrel more. If this is happening to excess then use new cases or anneal the necks.
Freshly annealed brass can drag on the mandrel a bit in certain cases because it will spring back less and result in a tighter size diameter.
I have experienced it. I always use some dry lube on the inside and outside if I get any draging effect . Normally you dont need lube.
I make up a special batch 1/3 Fine Moly powder. 1/3 Pure graphite. 1/3 Aluminiumised lock graphite. Rub your fingers around the neck and It sticks very well to the necks by just dipping it in and out and tapping it to clear the inside neck . After a few cases it coats up the mandrel .
Other dry lubricants would work also.
Use the same process for normal neck sizing also.

I noticed a definite improvement in the accuracy of my 22-250Rem. as soon as I started using a Lee collet die instead of my original standard neck die.
Readers are encouraged to utilise the benefits of responsible reloading at all times. Although the author has taken care in the writing of these articles no responsibility can be taken by the author or publisher as a result of the use of this information.
John Valentine. © 21/01/2002.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

So why not just use the finely machined perfect whidden die for its purpose and leave the die designed by the people that brought us the lee loader in the drawer?

 

[tcoz]

John Kielly, thank you for the info and the setup procedure.

Dusty Stevens, I’ve read of so many people who swear by the die and say that if it’s properly set up, reduces runout to near zero.

 

[mrjdasr]

So why not just use the finely machined perfect whidden die for its purpose and leave the die designed by the people that brought us the lee loader in the drawer?

the whidden die i am familiar with over worked the brass by reducing body diameters too much

 

[Dusty Stevens]

the whidden die i am familiar with over worked the brass by reducing body diameters too much

Did you send them fired cases to make the die from? Does your chamber maybe have excessive runout causing your brass to be larger than normal upon firing then get worked down to the size of a smaller chamber possibly?

 

[ireload2]

I found the Lee collet sizer to be a poor tool in some instances.
For example the 6mm Rem has a nice long neck. It is also tapered. about .003 with Remington factory brass. So the die produces a case mouth that is internally tapered. This does not provide a lot of grip on a loaded bullet. It also produced collet marks on the case necks. I found it worked ok on turned necks but a Wilson bushing neck die worked too and I really preferred the Wilson tool.
My .243 die worked as is with WW brass. But I sold my .243 so I got rid of both the 6mm and .243 collet dies.
I still have collet dies in 7mm Rem Mag and in .22 Hornet. I hope they work but if they don't I have Wilson bushing neck sizers that I have a lot of confidence in.

 

[B_Thomas]

The answer will be in the results you achieve by removing the bushing and running the brass through the Lee Collet die and re-measuring the neck to body run-out. If this produces better results then you're good to go. Only draw back is the Lee Collet dies mandrel sets the neck tension to approx. .002", ......so, if you want more or less you are out of luck. Another direction you could pursue would be Whidden's .308 non bushing FL die with the expander ball kit. This would eliminate the potential run out of the bushing to the body of the die, and the run-out of the ID hole to OD hole in the bushing itself. The various sized expanders will allow you to fine tune neck tension. The location of the expander ball is also important. I adjust the expander ball to pull throught the neck with the body still up in the die body as far as possible. This means the side wall of the case and the neck are both being held in alignment and producing less run-out.

 

[tcoz]

the whidden die i am familiar with over worked the brass by reducing body diameters too much

Along these lines, I inquired as to the availability of Whidden small base dies and was told by John that all of their f/l dies size the body to slightly smaller dimensions than standard f/l dies. That’s not to say that I consider it to be a problem. It’s actually nice to have every loaded round drop right into a JP Enterprises (min SAAMI spec) case gage.

 

[6MMsteve]

I use the Lee collet die to size 260ai & 6.5x284 runout is reduced quite a bit from the Normal dies I was using 260ai .0005 is my max runout with turned nks 65x284 is .001 to .0015 so I'm happy, I think, it shows on paper that's what counts

 

[6MMsteve]

Along these lines, I inquired as to the availability of Whidden small base dies and was told by John that all of their f/l dies size the body to slightly smaller dimensions than standard f/l dies. That’s not to say that I consider it to be a problem. It’s actually nice to have every loaded round drop right into a JP Enterprises (min SAAMI spec) case gage.

yes they do size as a small base die it says that they incorped that into the design which I have had to use on some cases

 

[swadiver]

The answer will be in the results you achieve by removing the bushing and running the brass through the Lee Collet die and re-measuring the neck to body run-out. If this produces better results then you're good to go. Only draw back is the Lee Collet dies mandrel sets the neck tension to approx. .002", ......so, if you want more or less you are out of luck. Another direction you could pursue would be Whidden's .308 non bushing FL die with the expander ball kit. This would eliminate the potential run out of the bushing to the body of the die, and the run-out of the ID hole to OD hole in the bushing itself. The various sized expanders will allow you to fine tune neck tension. The location of the expander ball is also important. I adjust the expander ball to pull throught the neck with the body still up in the die body as far as possible. This means the side wall of the case and the neck are both being held in alignment and producing less run-out.

you can order a $5 mandrel from Lee that is smaller in diameter and thus creates more neck tension. you can also turn down the stock mandrel in your drill press to whatever diameter you want and add neck tension that way. i believe the stock Lee mandrel gives about .015" worth of neck tension, nominally

 

[holstil]

Do you mean .0015?
Whidden makes custom dies to closely match your fire formed brass right? I plan to send him some 6brai brass to make me a die.

 

[MSS]

Love the Collet dies and have been using them for years.

 

[mr45man]

the whidden die i am familiar with over worked the brass by reducing body diameters too much

When you send Whidden fired brass,
They will make the size die accordingly.

 

[swadiver]

Do you mean .0015?
Whidden makes custom dies to closely match your fire formed brass right? I plan to send him some 6brai brass to make me a die.

sorry, missed a zero, .0015" is correct

 

[Bart B.]

I'm not aware of anyone who uses Lee Collet Dies that gets consistent 10-shot sub half MOA results through 200 yards.

That said, one may well use that die to get their best groups.

 

[rogn]

I dont have a Whidden die, but i believe they are superlative. I have had custom dies in the past and they do have a purpose. In my instance case forming. The collet dies in almost all cases when used correctly with good brass will produce loads that have less runout than most other systems produce. I found notes in an older Sierra manual. Rem 700, 300 WSM, 168 TSX 68.6 R19 all groups fired at 200yd < 1". No notation on numbr of groups fired. . These are the results I tend to see with good components, rifle being one of them.
One caveat when using collet dies is if you have a chamber with a large neck diameter such as military chamber, or brass that has burrs on the case mouth the brass may hang in the die rather than enter the collet. This will ressult in a collapsed shoulder. I see this most often when working w/ some batches of LC brass. Not the dies fault. Also if just trying to save time and resizing brass to use in an AR. I know dont do it. OK.

 

[BoydAllen]

For cases with unturned necks, using a two step approach with a collet die first and then a body die (or a FL bushing die with the bushing removed) gives the best result.
The additional mandrels that may be needed will need to be smaller than the one that comes with the Lee die since that usually produces about .001 neck tension. How finely something is made cannot make up for differences in design. Just for fun, take the bushing out of your FL die and measure a case on your concentricity gauge before and after sizing.