Using my lee collet neck sizing die, or the Lee FLS die backed out to bump the shoulder .002" on my .308win, I am getting runout of about .001 consistently. I am using the Hornady Concentricity gauge to verify runout. Results on paper are very good
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"Lee Collet Die" Experience
- Thread starter SHootSTraight22
- Start date
Jay,
Wonder how many read John Valentine's advice I posted. I've never had an issue since I did things his way. No scoring, no marks on the neck - no worries.
John
Same here. The OP, or anyone new to the LCD would be well served to read and save that long post you pasted earlier from John Valentine. Most folks overdo the LCD, I have sized thousands of 223 and 6.5 cases and font have collet indentations on my cases.
Can't count the number of folks I've shared that article with. I use the LCD and Redding body die to bump shoulders 2-3 thou, two step sizing process, along with Forster inline seaters. I heard about this last year from Boyd Allen here. Thank you Boyd.
It's the single best piece of reloading advice I ever got. Making the most concentric ammo ever, validated on 21st Century gauge and targets. Using it for 223 and 6.5 creedmoor. And any future precision rifle calibers I buy.
Dan
Wouldn't the difference be between having to "feel" it once when setting up the press to provide the correct tension at the cam over point, vs having to "feel" the pressure every single sizing? I would think setting it to provide proper tension at cam over would make sizing more consistent and faster.
It is and that's exactly why I do it. And reading here, and every other thread I have seen about the LCD, I'm 100% convinced that most people are applying too much force with their LCD. It's a very small amount of felt force on the press handle, I reach it as my Rockchucker is camming over in that last tiny motion. Read John Valentines article posted earlier, use light force, measure your brass, see just how little press arm force it takes.
Dan
And I can't understand what the problem is with LEE's instructions. The voodoo starts with Valentine introducing the notion a 'small sweet spot' at the end of ram travel that you have to FEEL just right. He writes:
'This is not the fault of the product , it is just a lack of understanding of how the die works and what it will FEEL like when you operate the press correctly.' BINGO
'It will still size a case locking it up but you have no control over how much pressure is applied and some people lean on the press handle to the point of damaging the die.' LAST I HEARD I HAD CONTROL OVER HOW HARD I PUSHED ON THE LEVER. JUST WHO IS THE OVER-CENTER PROCEDURE INTENDED FOR?
'This takes much less force than a standard die and most people don’t believe any sizing has taken place' SO WOULDN'T IT BE FUN IF WE REALIZED EXACTLY WHEN THE SIZING IS HAPPENING.
'keep repeating this until you FEEL the press handle resist against the case neck just at the top of the stroke as the press goes over centre' THERE IS THAT WORD 'FEEL' AGAIN.
'there is a small sweet spot for correct collet die adjustment and you must find it' SMALL IS RIGHT!
'This arrangement gives the best FEEL for a collet die sizing operation' ACTUALLY AT THIS POINT THE DIE IS LOCKED UP AND YOU ARE ONLY FEELING THE STRAIN IN THE PRESS.
'With a press that travels over centre it is possible to adjust the neck seating tension within a very limited zone' CONTRADICTED BY 'The inside neck diameter is controlled by the diameter of the mandrel', 'You can't get extra neck tension by just applying more force.'
'The amount of adjustment around the sweet spot is very limited and almost not noticeable without carrying out tests'. HAS ANYONE ACTUALLY TRIED THIS?
Sorry folks but contrary to the many good points in Valentine's article the cam-over setting procedure doesn't jive with how the die is designed to be used.
Oh ye of little faith. John V is the man. Lee would have been much better off had they just let him write the instructions for the LCD. I'm laughing, but not at you, for I had a very similar laundry list of questions when barking up this tree about a year and a half back.
The info came from a great source here, Boyd Allen, and finally after talking on phone I was convinced enough to try it. The result was a slight twitch of my 21st Concentricity gauge, and 0.172" and 0.161" bug holes with 223 and 6.5 creedmoor.
Fateful days, perhaps, but I've never shot like that before. And I'm shooting an AR15 and a Ruger Precision, not custom rifles. They are both solid 1/2 MOA rifles. I don't think about dies or whiz bang gear anymore. I just shoot.
Although variance in neck tension, annealing, and their relationship is now my focus as I have seen groups open up due to this. Ordering an Annealeez soon. I have entertained turning necks but will have DJ's Brass Service turn 50 so I can test out with and without for runout and accuracy before deciding.
Dan
That's one of the good outcomes. I've been given 4 .308 dies that owners have used too much force & riveted the sliding bits permanently into the die. Each one gave me a new Lee lock ring & a mandrel I can polish on my drill press to a slightly different diameter - though admittedly one has been modified with a short primer pin that I used when I primed before I sized. Incidentally, I deprime all my cases with a universal depriming fie to keep the crud away from my good dies.I'm 100% convinced that most people are applying too much force with their LCD.
Not surprised in the slightest.
I'm 100% convinced that most people are applying too much force with their LCD.
so how is setting the die at the point where the press has the most force (at TDC) going to prevent this?
You could approach the force needed at the TDC cam-over point carefully by using an adjustable lock ring like the Hornday split ring and incrementally adjusting the lock ring setting, checking each time with a bullet until you got the desired neck tension. Using a fixed setting point on the die position in conjunction with cam-over would in effect give you a "max" force that you could apply. A split ring locking ring can be adjusted in very fine increments (loosen die, loosen lock ring and move it a tiny bit relative to an indexed point on the die, tighten lock ring, tighten die and recheck). It would require some care in setting up, but if you did so it would avoid any concern of too much force.
Agree that there would have to be variability resulting from variations in neck thickness. The question is whether that variability is greater or less than the variability in force provided by the "feel" approach.
I suspect that there's a fairly forgiving window of neck tension once you get the brass fully compressed to the mandrel. Adding more force isn't going to compress it any more or give any more neck tension since it's on a fixed mandrel, then eventually you get to the point where you're damaging brass or dies.
You could approach the force needed at the TDC cam-over point carefully by using an adjustable lock ring like the Hornday split ring and incrementally adjusting the lock ring setting, checking each time with a bullet until you got the desired neck tension. Using a fixed setting point on the die position in conjunction with cam-over would in effect give you a "max" force that you could apply. A split ring locking ring can be adjusted in very fine increments (loosen die, loosen lock ring and move it a tiny bit relative to an indexed point on the die, tighten lock ring, tighten die and recheck). It would require some care in setting up, but if you did so it would avoid any concern of too much force.
Agree that there would have to be variability resulting from variations in neck thickness. The question is whether that variability is greater or less than the variability in force provided by the "feel" approach.
I suspect that there's a fairly forgiving window of neck tension once you get the brass fully compressed to the mandrel. Adding more force isn't going to compress it any more or give any more neck tension since it's on a fixed mandrel, then eventually you get to the point where you're damaging brass or dies.
Yes. Absolutely. You, unlike many, have a good grip on how this die should be used. It's not rocket science, but folks sure try to make it. I had the benefit of ignorance when I started using the LCD. I took Boyd Allens advice, knowing who he is. I read John Valentines article and used it in place of Lees instructions. I have reaped great rewards in doing so. It's very simple and repeatable.
Dan
I'm 100% convinced that most people are applying too much force with their LCD.
so how is setting the die at the point where the press has the most force (at TDC) going to prevent this?
When it comes to credibility, the designer and manufacturer of the die deserves some maybe.
Your making it sound like I'm camming over with the die screwed down too far or something. Do you know what a cam over is? Seriously, not sure what press you use. It's all relative to die position of course.
And if Lee would have provided John Valentines info as the instructions with LCD we wouldn't be having this discussion. Has nothing to do with credibility. It's about effectively communicating.
Dan
Same here. The OP, or anyone new to the LCD would be well served to read and save that long post you pasted earlier from John Valentine. Most folks overdo the LCD, I have sized thousands of 223 and 6.5 cases and font have collet indentations on my cases.
Can't count the number of folks I've shared that article with. I use the LCD and Redding body die to bump shoulders 2-3 thou, two step sizing process, along with Forster inline seaters. I heard about this last year from Boyd Allen here. Thank you Boyd.
It's the single best piece of reloading advice I ever got. Making the most concentric ammo ever, validated on 21st Century gauge and targets. Using it for 223 and 6.5 creedmoor. And any future precision rifle calibers I buy.
Dan
Dan; I can't seem to locate a LCD for my 6.5 Creedmoor, where'd you get yours?
Dan; I can't seem to locate a LCD for my 6.5 Creedmoor, where'd you get yours?
Bought the Lee set, $44 if I recall, just to get LCD. I bump shoulders with Redding body and seat with Forster BR. You can custom order LCD from Lee, but I was in a rush so just bought the Lee die set. Midway USA.
Dan
E bay has themDan; I can't seem to locate a LCD for my 6.5 Creedmoor, where'd you get yours?
Thanks guys, I have a L.E. Wilson micro seater and a Whidden bushing sizer, and soon I'll have the LCD.
''I suspect that there's a fairly forgiving window'' (Sheldon)
This statement prompted me to try something. By calculation a variation in neck wall thickness of .001'' (worst case scenario?) would result in a variation in final collet position of .003'' (numbers rounded for convenience).
A seating die was set in the press using the over-center approach. The die was set against a shell holder in the ram but no brass was inserted. Feeler gauges starting at .0015'' were inserted between the shell holder and die. The ram was run over center while observing how much 'harder' the press lever became. Only after the .005'' gauge did the press lever effort become excessive to me. It became clear that my press was flexing much more than I realized and that this provided a relatively broad window to safely accommodate any variation in neck wall thickness. This was the missing piece to the puzzle for me. The press used is an older RCBS RS.
Since I had no idea how much pressure was being exerted on the respective feeler gauges, different items (copper penny, aluminum shims, copper shims) were cammed over to see how they would stand up. One of the trials with a .005'' copper shim showed that pressure was enough to leave a clear outline in the copper but that the copper was not noticeably crushed. When trying a penny there was not enough leverage in the press for me to cam over centre with reasonable effort due to the thickness of the penny. These 'trials' were far from scientific but they provide visuals that left me reassured. An LCD can be set by the cam-over approach with my press and not risk damaging it. Of course none of this applies to anyone else but it gave me what I needed to understand why the cam-over approach with LCDs can work safely.
I have no idea how typical the flex in my RCBS press might be so similar tests will be run on my other presses eventually.
Finally, it leaves me wondering what kind of press and set up it would take to deliberately stress a LCD to failure. The apparent number of damaged LCDs makes me wonder how did they do it?
This statement prompted me to try something. By calculation a variation in neck wall thickness of .001'' (worst case scenario?) would result in a variation in final collet position of .003'' (numbers rounded for convenience).
A seating die was set in the press using the over-center approach. The die was set against a shell holder in the ram but no brass was inserted. Feeler gauges starting at .0015'' were inserted between the shell holder and die. The ram was run over center while observing how much 'harder' the press lever became. Only after the .005'' gauge did the press lever effort become excessive to me. It became clear that my press was flexing much more than I realized and that this provided a relatively broad window to safely accommodate any variation in neck wall thickness. This was the missing piece to the puzzle for me. The press used is an older RCBS RS.
Since I had no idea how much pressure was being exerted on the respective feeler gauges, different items (copper penny, aluminum shims, copper shims) were cammed over to see how they would stand up. One of the trials with a .005'' copper shim showed that pressure was enough to leave a clear outline in the copper but that the copper was not noticeably crushed. When trying a penny there was not enough leverage in the press for me to cam over centre with reasonable effort due to the thickness of the penny. These 'trials' were far from scientific but they provide visuals that left me reassured. An LCD can be set by the cam-over approach with my press and not risk damaging it. Of course none of this applies to anyone else but it gave me what I needed to understand why the cam-over approach with LCDs can work safely.
I have no idea how typical the flex in my RCBS press might be so similar tests will be run on my other presses eventually.
Finally, it leaves me wondering what kind of press and set up it would take to deliberately stress a LCD to failure. The apparent number of damaged LCDs makes me wonder how did they do it?
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What it means is there are a lot of ham fisted folks out there.
Damaging a LCD by over pressure is astonishing to me, having used two of them with such effortless success. Now when folks get collet marks on brass, by slightly over doing the LCD, that's more understandable. It's ironic that they were so close to the perfect die adjustment.
In my non scientific setup, there is not a ton of die adjustment between pressure that leaves faint (barely seen) marks and what I just call 'the sweet spot'. As I set my LCD up the second time, I went the other way, I set it up not sizing enough of the neck and while inspecting brass, dry fitting my 139 Scenars into mouth, etc, slowly adjusted die to provide more press arm tension (near/at cam over). It's surprising how little force is needed. All our other sizing on press ruins our feel for this, that's why folks often overdo it.
Like I said earlier, it's not rocket science and the smarter you think you are the harder this will be. Just follow John Valentine's article pasted on page one here and be done with it. I can appreciate Tozguy's input because I was thinking much the same two years ago. After doing it per John V's direction, hearing how this thing works from Boyd Allen, and shooting some bug holes, I no longer suffer from my affliction. As much.
Dan
NC
Damaging a LCD by over pressure is astonishing to me, having used two of them with such effortless success. Now when folks get collet marks on brass, by slightly over doing the LCD, that's more understandable. It's ironic that they were so close to the perfect die adjustment.
In my non scientific setup, there is not a ton of die adjustment between pressure that leaves faint (barely seen) marks and what I just call 'the sweet spot'. As I set my LCD up the second time, I went the other way, I set it up not sizing enough of the neck and while inspecting brass, dry fitting my 139 Scenars into mouth, etc, slowly adjusted die to provide more press arm tension (near/at cam over). It's surprising how little force is needed. All our other sizing on press ruins our feel for this, that's why folks often overdo it.
Like I said earlier, it's not rocket science and the smarter you think you are the harder this will be. Just follow John Valentine's article pasted on page one here and be done with it. I can appreciate Tozguy's input because I was thinking much the same two years ago. After doing it per John V's direction, hearing how this thing works from Boyd Allen, and shooting some bug holes, I no longer suffer from my affliction. As much.
Dan
NC
I have used one for years and I really like it.I did change the mandrel. I made one to give me the neck tension I wanted.And I use a 243 win die for my 243 ai.It works fine for the ai.
My technique is to do a two step neck sizing process (only if you need to size down more than .005), first with a redding competition neck bushing die, then the final neck size down in a type s full length bushing die. I then set neck tension with a 21st century neck expander mandrel. I do neck turn as well, but I feel that I get very concentric ID results using this method, and don't have to worry about what sort of tension I'm using, or any of the other issues with the collet dies.
Would there be any advantages to a collet system that I am unaware of vs my own method? One that I can think of is only having two steps (body die + collet) vs my three step process outlined above. However, I complete the first two steps prior to ss wet tumbling. I then apply dry neck lube in case & run the expander to make myself feel better that I have the same tension on all necks after ss tumbling.
You can set tension by using either the expander (give you roughly .0015 tension), or the neck turning arbor (roughly .0025 tension). Also John at 21st Century can cut you whatever diameter you need.
Would there be any advantages to a collet system that I am unaware of vs my own method? One that I can think of is only having two steps (body die + collet) vs my three step process outlined above. However, I complete the first two steps prior to ss wet tumbling. I then apply dry neck lube in case & run the expander to make myself feel better that I have the same tension on all necks after ss tumbling.
You can set tension by using either the expander (give you roughly .0015 tension), or the neck turning arbor (roughly .0025 tension). Also John at 21st Century can cut you whatever diameter you need.
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47WillysGuy
Gold $$ Contributor
Lee Precision sells collet neck size dies separately.
Go to Lee Precision page, under Catergories,find Reloading Dies, find Rifles, find Collet Neck Sizing Die Only, drill down and find the pull down menu for the caliber you want. $26.98 plus shippng is where I got mine.
Go to Lee Precision page, under Catergories,find Reloading Dies, find Rifles, find Collet Neck Sizing Die Only, drill down and find the pull down menu for the caliber you want. $26.98 plus shippng is where I got mine.
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