"Lee Collet Die" Experience

[amlevin]

I love the Lee Collet die. No lube required, incredibly straight necks, and consistent neck tension.

Just hate the "ribs" that are left behind by the gaps in the collet. Yes, one can knock them down by sizing most of the way in one stroke, lowering ram and rotating case about 45 degrees, then finishing the sizing process. Still annoying.

Now I just use the collet die when loading at the range on a small number of cases.

If you are getting marks on the neck of your brass, you are doing-it-wrong. You need to back the die out a bit. It should barely engage the die to cause the collet fingers to close on the neck/mandrel. It takes far less contact than you might think for the sizing to happen.

First off I follow the instructions from Lee which calls for NO cam-over on presses that do so. Second, I don't apply all that much pressure to the cases as I realize I don't want to squish the neck metal.

The "ribs" are forming as the neck is reduced in diameter in the areas the collet is not contacting the metal.

This even occurs when I neck size using my Lee Hand Press and I'm sure I'm not applying too much pressure when only using hand pressure.

This may not be an issue for those who have tight chambers where the case neck doesn't grow more than a few thousandths when fired but for "standard" chambers there's a lot of metal movement and it flows into the gaps in the collet.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

I love the Lee Collet die. No lube required, incredibly straight necks, and consistent neck tension.

Just hate the "ribs" that are left behind by the gaps in the collet. Yes, one can knock them down by sizing most of the way in one stroke, lowering ram and rotating case about 45 degrees, then finishing the sizing process. Still annoying.

Now I just use the collet die when loading at the range on a small number of cases.

If you are getting marks on the neck of your brass, you are doing-it-wrong. You need to back the die out a bit. It should barely engage the die to cause the collet fingers to close on the neck/mandrel. It takes far less contact than you might think for the sizing to happen.

First off I follow the instructions from Lee which calls for NO cam-over on presses that do so. Second, I don't apply all that much pressure to the cases as I realize I don't want to squish the neck metal.

The "ribs" are forming as the neck is reduced in diameter in the areas the collet is not contacting the metal.

This even occurs when I neck size using my Lee Hand Press and I'm sure I'm not applying too much pressure when only using hand pressure.

This may not be an issue for those who have tight chambers where the case neck doesn't grow more than a few thousandths when fired but for "standard" chambers there's a lot of metal movement and it flows into the gaps in the collet.

Alright, well if it's working for you, then I wouldn't change it. I just commented because I haven't seen that before, except where someone was applying too much pressure. My experience has not been the same, across 4 different calibers, two of which are not match chambers.

The one point where I deviate from Lee's instructions, is that I *do* cam-over - I setup my die so that I have just a hair of cam-over. Mostly because I think it adds more consistency to the process.

 

[Dos XX]

I love the Lee Collet die. No lube required, incredibly straight necks, and consistent neck tension.

Just hate the "ribs" that are left behind by the gaps in the collet. Yes, one can knock them down by sizing most of the way in one stroke, lowering ram and rotating case about 45 degrees, then finishing the sizing process. Still annoying.

Now I just use the collet die when loading at the range on a small number of cases.

If you are getting marks on the neck of your brass, you are doing-it-wrong. You need to back the die out a bit. It should barely engage the die to cause the collet fingers to close on the neck/mandrel. It takes far less contact than you might think for the sizing to happen.

First off I follow the instructions from Lee which calls for NO cam-over on presses that do so. Second, I don't apply all that much pressure to the cases as I realize I don't want to squish the neck metal.

The "ribs" are forming as the neck is reduced in diameter in the areas the collet is not contacting the metal.

This even occurs when I neck size using my Lee Hand Press and I'm sure I'm not applying too much pressure when only using hand pressure.

This may not be an issue for those who have tight chambers where the case neck doesn't grow more than a few thousandths when fired but for "standard" chambers there's a lot of metal movement and it flows into the gaps in the collet.

On .308 Lapua, mine will leave marks if the necks aren't turned. If the necks are turned, mine are to .014, no marks. I also cam over, just barely.

 

[JohnKielly]

On .308 Lapua, mine will leave marks if the necks aren't turned. If the necks are turned, mine are to .014, no marks. I also cam over, just barely.

Mine are fine unturned once I set the die up and adjust it according to John Valentine's recommendation that I posted earlier.

 

[DonnyJ]

^^^^ Good information! Works fantastic!

 

[Tozguy]

Oh but seating force has nearly nothing(directly) to do with actual neck tension.
Tension is varied with length of sizing. Can you adjust the length of neck sizing with a collet die?

Yes

 

[Tozguy]

I follow Lee's instructions. I don't cam over. Actually I go the opposite way and set the die as low as possible until I can feel the collet squishing the neck to the mandrel. The LCD does not need anywhere near as much ram force to resize as a bushing or FL die does. Stopping the ram by feel (feeling the die lock up) is more consistent than when camming over unless neck wall thickness is very very consistent, even then camming over is not worse just unnecessary.

I also rotate the case by 45 deg. for a second pass to iron out ridges.

BTW you cannot swage the brass neck with a LCD. The amount of force required to do this would pop the top off the die long before the brass starts to flow.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Stopping the ram by feel is more consistent than when camming over unless neck wall thickness is very very consistent.

Not to be disagreeable, but... no. There's no way that "stopping by feel" is remotely as consistent as stopping when your handle encounters a piece of metal (cam over). No way.

EDIT: I should point out though, that it really doesn't matter. In a LCD, the neck will only size to the diameter of the mandrel you are using, regardless of the amount of force, by feel, cam-over, or otherwise, that you use. More-than-needed-force will simply put marks on the outside of your neck, and that's about it.

 

[normmatzen]

Sorry, you don't necessarily "simply put marks on the outside of your necks!"
I have used LEE collet dies almost from when I started Bench rest shooting.

And, I have made more mistakes than I like to admit!
Did you know you can cold weld a case neck to the mandrel? Yes you can, just take a VERY clean case and press too hard with a non-camover press!
Or adjust the die too low and pop the aluminum cap off the top of the die.

I was ultrasonic cleaning cases for a while and they sure looked pretty! but I lost a few cases by using too much pressure and squeaky clean cases. Welded them right to the mandrel! Puts a serious perturbation to your loading rhythm!

I just got a shiny new LEE classic cast press for Christmas. first thing I am going to do is file the ears off the links so that when installed one way, I have cam-over, back the other way no cam-over. I will adjust my breech lock receivers so I just get cam-over with the proper pressure.

 

[Tozguy]

Hi Jay,

When you mention 'more than needed force' do you know how much is needed versus how much is provided at cam over?

When the 'neck only sizes to the diameter of the mandrel'', thats metal to metal in my books. Its like hitting a wall. Why can't you feel when that happens? I can if the die is adjusted per Lee.

Making the lock up on the mandrel coincide with the limit of travel of the ram is an unnecessary complication especially if as you say it doesn't matter. If there is any variation in case neck wall thickness then the collet to brass to mandrel lock up point changes but not the cam out point. If the operator insists on sizing to the press limit how can he be sure of having consistent pressure on the mandrel?

I would encourage anyone who uses a LCD to discover how little force on the press handle is required to get their brass to mandrel contact, see what it feels like and take it from there.

With respect and thanks for the tremendous job you do for us, Mike

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Sorry, you don't necessarily "simply put marks on the outside of your necks!"
I have used LEE collet dies almost from when I started Bench rest shooting.

And, I have made more mistakes than I like to admit!
Did you know you can cold weld a case neck to the mandrel? Yes you can, just take a VERY clean case and press too hard with a non-camover press!
Or adjust the die too low and pop the aluminum cap off the top of the die.

I was ultrasonic cleaning cases for a while and they sure looked pretty! but I lost a few cases by using too much pressure and squeaky clean cases. Welded them right to the mandrel! Puts a serious perturbation to your loading rhythm!

I just got a shiny new LEE classic cast press for Christmas. first thing I am going to do is file the ears off the links so that when installed one way, I have cam-over, back the other way no cam-over. I will adjust my breech lock receivers so I just get cam-over with the proper pressure.

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

EDIT: After thinking about it, the only way I can see this happening if you have your die adjusted way too low and are jamming the shoulder into the collet; I could see it wedging in when you run the die, but that would take a great deal of force and your brass would be wrecked.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Hi Jay,

When you mention 'more than needed force' do you know how much is needed versus how much is provided at cam over?

When the 'neck only sizes to the diameter of the mandrel'', thats metal to metal in my books. Its like hitting a wall. Why can't you feel when that happens? I can if the die is adjusted per Lee.

Making the lock up on the mandrel coincide with the limit of travel of the ram is an unnecessary complication especially if as you say it doesn't matter. If there is any variation in case neck wall thickness then the collet to brass to mandrel lock up point changes but not the cam out point. If the operator insists on sizing to the press limit how can he be sure of having consistent pressure on the mandrel?

I would encourage anyone who uses a LCD to discover how little force on the press handle is required to get their brass to mandrel contact, see what it feels like and take it from there.

With respect and thanks for the tremendous job you do for us, Mike

I'm not debating whether or not you can "feel" something - I'm debating your statement that "by feel" is more consistent than a slight cam over. There's no chance that is a true statement. It's physically impossible.

Sure, I can feel it, but at that point, you are halfway through the press stroke - or to whatever degree you have setup your die to touch. You telling me that you can stop the handle and reverse within the same degree that a cam over stop does? Please.

Again, not that it makes a difference - once the neck has formed the mandrel, there's really nothing more to be gained by pressing harder on it, except to gain some finger marks on the neck.

It's a Lee Collet Die. It's not voodoo. It annoys me that some people try to make it so. It's one of the simplest dies out there to setup and use and produces extremely consistent results with a minimum of effort.

 

[JohnKielly]

Jay,

Wonder how many read John Valentine's advice I posted. I've never had an issue since I did things his way. No scoring, no marks on the neck - no worries.

John

 

[savagedasher]

you can place a washer(s) over case and then the die bottoms out on these

Works like a charm .You can get harden machine washers in different thickness . Ben doing it for years. Larry

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Jay,

Wonder how many read John Valentine's advice I posted. I've never had an issue since I did things his way. No scoring, no marks on the neck - no worries.

John

The method you posted RE: John Valentine's advice is exactly how I use it and it's never presented any sort of problem for me. It's dead simple - I just can't understand some of issues that people mention in this thread.

 

[Tozguy]

And I can't understand what the problem is with LEE's instructions. The voodoo starts with Valentine introducing the notion a 'small sweet spot' at the end of ram travel that you have to FEEL just right. He writes:

'This is not the fault of the product , it is just a lack of understanding of how the die works and what it will FEEL like when you operate the press correctly.' BINGO

'It will still size a case locking it up but you have no control over how much pressure is applied and some people lean on the press handle to the point of damaging the die.' LAST I HEARD I HAD CONTROL OVER HOW HARD I PUSHED ON THE LEVER. JUST WHO IS THE OVER-CENTER PROCEDURE INTENDED FOR?

'This takes much less force than a standard die and most people don’t believe any sizing has taken place' SO WOULDN'T IT BE FUN IF WE REALIZED EXACTLY WHEN THE SIZING IS HAPPENING.

'keep repeating this until you FEEL the press handle resist against the case neck just at the top of the stroke as the press goes over centre' THERE IS THAT WORD 'FEEL' AGAIN.

'there is a small sweet spot for correct collet die adjustment and you must find it' SMALL IS RIGHT!

'This arrangement gives the best FEEL for a collet die sizing operation' ACTUALLY AT THIS POINT THE DIE IS LOCKED UP AND YOU ARE ONLY FEELING THE STRAIN IN THE PRESS.

'With a press that travels over centre it is possible to adjust the neck seating tension within a very limited zone' CONTRADICTED BY 'The inside neck diameter is controlled by the diameter of the mandrel', 'You can't get extra neck tension by just applying more force.'

'The amount of adjustment around the sweet spot is very limited and almost not noticeable without carrying out tests'. HAS ANYONE ACTUALLY TRIED THIS?

Sorry folks but contrary to the many good points in Valentine's article the cam-over setting procedure doesn't jive with how the die is designed to be used.

 

[Sheldon N]

Wouldn't the difference be between having to "feel" it once when setting up the press to provide the correct tension at the cam over point, vs having to "feel" the pressure every single sizing? I would think setting it to provide proper tension at cam over would make sizing more consistent and faster.

 

[Homerange]

Wouldn't the difference be between having to "feel" it once when setting up the press to provide the correct tension at the cam over point, vs having to "feel" the pressure every single sizing? I would think setting it to provide proper tension at cam over would make sizing more consistent and faster.

Yes and No. If you work with turned neck cases probably.

With all the Collet dies I use, the feel is not always apparent especially when you're into a routine and cranking them through, however to slow down and concentrate it's there alright.
223,243,6mm,708,308

 

[normmatzen]

So Jay. What are you not buying? The cold weld or the other problems I made for myself?
Back when I was doing my cold welding I was ultrasonic cleaning my cases. Cleaning to the point the primer pockets looked like new, really pretty cases.
Then,in addition to cold welding case necks to the die mandrel, I had unpredictable seating.
After calls to LEE and a lot of time spent on this very forum, I found others had stopped using ultrasonic as well. People were finding that ultrasonic clean with acidic solutions etches the inside of the neck to a varying degree.
And, cold welding case necks was not just me.
Now, I clean with walnut husks in a vibrator and brush the inside necks with a nylon brush. I now get consistent seating as determined by my seating force measuring press.
And, if you don't believe in cold welding, you haven't watched a blacksmith making wrought iron furniture or gates! Oh Yes! You may be a bit too young for that.

 

[Tozguy]

Glad you asked the question Sheldon,



Lets take a concrete example of having to resize a 30 cal cartridge neck from .337’’ o.d. to .331’’ o. d. i.e. .006’’ of resizing on the diameter. The resized diameter being the outcome of the size of the mandrel and a neck wall thickness of .0125’’. Based on the 20 degree angle per side of the collet sleeve, the collet would have to move .0082’’ into the sleeve for it to close that amount .006’’.



So you set the delicate cam-over point to feel right for that cartridge. If all the neck walls are consistent then collet pressure should remain the same for all subsequent cases. But what if there is variation in neck wall thickness? A neck wall thinner by .0005’’ would require the collet to move .00137’’ farther into the sleeve to get the same pressure on the brass. But wait! ram stroke is limited by the cam-over setting to the same length for all cartridges. It doesn’t go the extra .00137’’ that’s required. So what case neck i. d. do we end up with? What happens if the cartridge after that is .0005’’ thicker? Do you force the press to cam over anyway?



Based on this example it should be clear that limiting ram stroke to the cam-over point is not going to give you consistent collet pressure from case to case UNLESS your press is very flexible or unless your case necks are very uniform. If that applies then by all means the cam-over setting should do. The psychological comfort it gives is not negligible.



In a sport where doing things by feel is common (ex. inserting primers, using powder throwers, doing the exact same thing time after time at the bench) it amazes when someone refuses to develop a feel for the LCD. If finding the right cam-over spot is sweet, then I would say that getting to feel up a LCD is orgasmic.