Lee collet die.......amazing!

[lazyeiger]

Like other people I have suffered from unpredictable run out using Redding bushing dies.
I decided to give the Lee collet die a try.
After I recieved the die I made some modifications, I cleaned all the burrs from the inside of the collet and I made up some custom mandrels. The mandrel that came with the .308 die ws 0.3058 diameter so I made 0.3065, 0.3070, 0.3075 mandrels. I ended up using the 0.3065 one which after springback gave me the 0.001 tension I was looking for.
Fired cases were full length sized and the shoulder setback using a redding full length bushing sizer with the bushing removed. Then all cases were cleaned with st/st media for 4 hours, cases were length sized and internal and externally chamfered. Then all cases were sized with the Lee collet die 2 x with a 180 degree rotation between the 2 operations.

I loaded 31 cases with IMR 8028 XBR and Berger 168g hybrids this morning.

28 had bullet runout of less than 0.0005" (most were 0.0002" - 0.0003")
2 had 0.001"
1 had 0.002"

Also as the inside of the neck is sized the bullet seating force was very consistant.

This is totally amazing after the Redding collet setup I had which I struggled to get runouts better than 0.0015"

Now lets go see how they shoot!!!

Jon

 

[LR_Shooter]

great news!

 

[fdshuster]

Jon: What tools(s) are you using to measure to the fourth decimal, .0002" and .0003"?

 

[lazyeiger]

Jon: What tools(s) are you using to measure to the fourth decimal, .0002" and .0003"?

For the diametrical measurements I use a Starrett 734 digital micrometer.

Starrett quote the resolution as 0.00005" and the accuracy as 0.0001"

I have a lot of experience with these types of instruments and can consistantly measure to 0.0001" with this one, it is a beautiful micrometer.

For the runout I am using a Starrett 708a dial gauge with 0.0001" divisions with a homemde ball bearing runout block.



Jon

 

[queen_stick]

disregard... just reread the part in question

 

[fdshuster]

Jon: Thought this was computer keyboard B.S., but you got me there! . I'm happy working with the Sinclair concentricity gauge, to the nearest .001". .002" and less is match quality ( to my standards), .003" to .004" is reserved for 100 yd. max, first round foulers, & informal work. Above .004" is marked & considered for the scrap can. Thanks for the info.

 

[hogan]

Not to be terribly snarky, but wanted to review Jon's posts and read about "Redding Bushing Die Disappointment". So I find this from late April. Evidently Jon has about 12 weeks of handloading expertise to draw from.

"So I shot my first 50 rounds of reloaded ammo at the weekend, now I have 50 cases that need preping for the next reload! I am not sure which operations to perform in what order?

I have a stainless media tumbler a full size type S bushing die and a micrometer top Redding competition bushing die a .331 bushing and a .334 bushing.

I was thinking of using the type S with the .334 bushing to remove the primer set back the shoulder ~.001" and size the neck to .334" Then use the competition bushing die with the .331" bushing then clean in the tumbler.

Is this the correct order?

Thanks Jon "


I guess there is a Holy Grail for cartridge case preparation. We all want the best ammunition we can conceive to make with our gear.

Thinking out loud here, but why tumble brass AFTER you've spent all the time and effort to obtain concentric necks? Why not use a depriming die first to knock out primer and then tend to the neck situation?

If want absolute concentricity, why jack around with 7/8x14 dies rather than Wilson or other arbor press dies?

Nothing about neck turning and reaming? Does 100% concentricity (no run-out) matter if necks are uneven in terms of brass dimension? Get uneven bullet release that way, don'tcha? Does 100% concentric ammunition even matter unless you have a fully concentric chamber and boltface relationship?

Seems like what matters is sizing brass the absolute minimum to preserve chamber orientation/relationship and that unless 100% perfect boltface to throat concentricity is present, making brass fully concentric might diminish accuracy...

Are you orienting brass same way every firing? IE, positioning the brass w/headstamp at same position every time chamber a round?

Also need to polish or shape on a lathe your expander button so there is no drag or snagging of the edge when button comes out of the neck. Redding Carbide Ball conversion might be a worthy upgrade if willing to "damn the torpedoes of expense" to make 7/8x14 gear mimic arbor dies.

Each chamber is a law unto itself when it comes to obtaining a uniform ignition and correctly oriented bullet entering rifling. Seating into the lands is not the cure-all. If bullet is cocked in the case it just generates other issues. Theoretically.

What is really critical in my experience is chamber OAL. RCBS Precision Mic or Wilson Case Gauge used w/caliper will tell you the story of your chamber. Measure unfired loaded round before and after firing to see evidence of fill-out to chamber OAL. Confirm w/once-fired brass load to again see fill-out.

Might want to check the concentricity of your fired cases before obsessing over perfection of your handloads. I do commend you on your commitment to excellence, but think you have misplaced your effort in choosing 7/8x14 platform over Arbor Die platform.

Good luck!

 

[lazyeiger]

Evidently Jon has about 12 weeks of handloading expertise to draw from.

Yes I am the first to admit that I have very little experience in reloading ( or even shooting period!) and that I have a lot to learn!

I just wanted to pass on my expeiences so far.

I just like to pass on to others the things I am learning along the way as a sort of payback for the information I have gleaned from this and other forums!

I did not mean not affend anyone with my inexperience.

Jon

 

[fdshuster]

Just to add my two cents worth (maybe worth even less?), but I find the majority of my loaded round runouts to be caused by a defective piece of brass, probably going all the way back to when the case was drawn. How else to explain 2 out of 20 ( for example) rounds that may have R/O of .004" or .005", and the other 18 at .002" or less? And yes, I do use Wilson dies with a Sinclair arbor press for the 222 Rem. ( 2 chamberings), and the 6ppc's ( 4 chamberings). Redding FL bushing dies with Forster Benchrest Micrometer seaters are used for the others, like the 6BR ( 5 chamberings), 6BRX (1), 223 Rem. (5), etc. I can get R/O with any of the above. Seems to me if it were a problem with loading methods and/or tools used, all 20 of 20 would have approx. the same R/O. I've stopped worrying about it and use the Sinclair Concentricity Gauge to segregate the good from the bad, as previousely noted. Works for me.

 

[hogan]

Evidently Jon has about 12 weeks of handloading expertise to draw from.

Yes I am the first to admit that I have very little experience in reloading ( or even shooting period!) and that I have a lot to learn!

I just wanted to pass on my expeiences so far.

I just like to pass on to others the things I am learning along the way as a sort of payback for the information I have gleaned from this and other forums!

I did not mean not affend anyone with my inexperience.

Jon

No offense taken, but... just wondering also why you would conclude that both Type S FL and Type S neck competition die were necessary to get the results you are/were seeking?

I've owned Redding Micrometer Bushing sizer dies and could not see the sense in continuing to own them. You are certainly free to fund your pursuits however you wish, but the FL S die is more than adequate for task. FL die can be set with spacer to neck size or adjusted for each session. Use a .004" or thicker spacer/washer when you want to only neck size using your FL S die. A set of Skips, or other die spacers might be worth looking at.

Not trying to be the handloading-nazi here, but tailoring the case to the chamber is what controls the majority of variables in precision shooting. Concentric ammunition is not the whole enchilada. How is your shooting going? Do you know your chamber dimensions or own the reamer used for your chamber? Are you shooting optimum bullet for the throat dimension?

Redding is missing the boat by not making sizing buttons in .001 variable sizes also. The tapered buttons for necking-up brass are way better than standard since they have no drag upon the case neck; at twice the price though, these put a $70 die more towards $85. The carbide ball kits are $30 so there is why most don't upgrade their sizers.

Didn't see any mention from you about case-trimming. I am not a collet-die owner, but seems as the die functions by pressing the neck around a mandrel that, at least on the initial operation, will displace brass as it brings neck concentric with the body die portion. Would not displace much on a close-to concentric case, but one fairly far out would have been reformed fairly significantly; or so I'd expect. So, haven't done any trimming?

Lots of trimmers out there. Wilson is about the best value because their case dies function more ably to control the case concentrically for trimming, neck reaming and chamfering. You are using a 30deg chamfer tool to seat your match bullets, right?

Lots of ways to solve for X the accuracy unknown. Scope base and rings, plus proven scope being among the most critical. Knowing your chamber dimensions are about .0005 over SAAMI minimum, bullet selected matched to throat and seated to optimum performance position either jumping or into the lands.

Sinclair Intl used to publish a Handbook for Precision Shooters (Precision Shooter's & Reloading Handbook?). Might look for a copy or the Precision Shooting Handloading Guide or Glen Zediker's book to bring all the variables into focus.

 

[infantrytrophy]

Please educate me on the Lee collet die --

Is this for full-length sizing or neck only sizing?

Can the different-sized collets be purchased, or only custom made? Anyone have pictures of the collets?

Randy

 

[Remshooter]

I wouldn't call the Lee Collet Die - amazing- but it does an excellent job of controlling neck tension by sizing very consistently. It also sure beats pulling a swage plug up thru the neck and distorting the brass.

Its a nice improvement, if only Lee would make the dies to a higher quality level. It will be interesting to see what happens in the reloading die industry once the patent runs out.

 

[lazyeiger]

Hogan,

I used the type SFL and the micrometer neck sizer because after a lot of reading that seemed to be the way to go ( Germán A. Salazar).

I think now that that approach is wrong and a waste of money!!!

I do turn the ouside of my necks using a K & M neck turner.

I agree that the cases need to be trimmed after using the collet die as you correctly say the neck is sqeezed to the correct ID and that brass has to go somewhere, this results in ununiform case lengths by as much as 0.005" I have a Wilson trimmer for this.

Yes I do own the chamber reamer as I reamed my own chamber and yes I am shooting the recomended bullets ( by PTG) for this chamber.

The shooting is going OK again my inexperience is the greatest effect here as I am just not very consistant especially with follow through, I am working on it! I know the gun can shoot as a friend who is very experienced just picked it up and put 5 shoots basically through the same hole at 100 yards.

Here is how I propose to prep my next lot of new brass please comment!

1/ expand neck with K & M expander mandrel
2/ turn necks to an OD 0f 0.334" (chamber neck is 0.336")
3/chamfer inside and outside of neck (K & M inside chamfer tool)
4/ use collet die with 0.365 mandrel
5/ length size case and re chamfer inside and outside of neck
6/ load up and shoot

after first firing
1/ full length size with no bushing bumping shoulder back 0.001"
2/ clean with st/st media
3/ chamfer inside and outside of neck
4/ use collet die with 0.365 mandrel
5/ length size case and re chamfer inside and outside of neck
6/ load up and shoot

I see your point about FL sizing after cleaning but then the cases are covered with lube is this a problem??

I understand that I am being incredably anal about all this, but if I can get to firing line knowing I have all my equipment prepared and working properly there is only me left to blame!!!

Jon

 

[Flouncer]

Please educate me on the Lee collet die --

Is this for full-length sizing or neck only sizing?

Can the different-sized collets be purchased, or only custom made? Anyone have pictures of the collets?

Randy

Lee will make or modify a custom die on special order. I rarely chirp in here because I have so little to offer. But reading through these posts I am left thinking to myself. This is a great board to learn from, and great people on here. The tone and tenor is a refreshing change from the all to easy argumentative mode.

Regarding a question asked of the OP about chamber dimension specs:

1. Why no mention of a chamber cast ?

2. When one fires a case, it expands to fill the chamber, no ? Then it springs back a little. Then, if it is necksized, let's say the Lee Collet die, isn't that as near to an exact chamber match as possible ? Why full length size if one of the objectives is to match the chamber to enhance bullet/bore alignment ? This is assuming the collet sized reload chambers without undue force and is used in only that weapon.

3. Why is an arbor press more accurate or preferable to the standard compound leverage/toggle press ?

Thanks all

 

[lazyeiger]

Flouncer,

" 1. Why no mention of a chamber cast ? "

I have the reamer and reamed the chamber myself so I know the dimensions.

I have found that if I do not FL resize the bolt closing is kind of tight and once again I went with general opinion that FL resize every time is good ( once again maybe bad info!!)

Jon

 

[fdshuster]

jon: I have my neck bushing dies adjusted to bump the shoulder back with each reload. 6ppc's , 6BR's and the 6BRX get .001", and others like the 223, for my bolt guns, 222 Rem. etc. get bumped back .002". Brass for my AR-15's get .003". Is there also some full length sizing going on at the same time? Probably, but I don't care. I have just a little resistance when closing the bolt, the way I like it, brass does not stretch, cannot remember the last time I had to trim ppc, BR & BRX brass, and easily get over 35 loadings out of Lapua. Yes, you can neck size only without touching the shoulder, and that will work fine for 4 or 5 loadings, ( depending on what kind of pressures you're working with), but then bolt closing will become more difficult, so the shoulders will have to be bumped back anyway. I also spec out & buy my own reamers, so never saw a need to do a chamber cast: all the dimensions I need are on the reamer print drawing.

 

[bigedp51]

Even Scottish shooters like the Lee Collet die.


Comparison of the Lee Collet neck die and the Hornady neck die
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZEas38vkKg

Imagine someone changing mandrel diameter to get the proper neck tension, I remember someone here attaching a torque wrench to his press to get the desired neck tension.

I applaud lazyeiger for his efforts and posting, keep up your modifying and testing lazyeiger.

Illegitimi non carborundum

Notice: No reloading presses were killed or injured during the filming of this posting. :

 

[lazyeiger]

Even Scottish shooters like the Lee Collet die.

Of course you do, it's cheap!!!

 

[Rock Knocker]

Torque wrench on the handle! That is perfect, i have been wondering how to get consistant crimps with the Lee factory crimper.

Also where can i find a collet die for 260AI? Ive heard some modfying of the standard 260 die to work for the ackley but seems scetchy.

 

[coonhunter70]

When does the patent run out?

I wouldn't call the Lee Collet Die - amazing- but it does an excellent job of controlling neck tension by sizing very consistently. It also sure beats pulling a swage plug up thru the neck and distorting the brass.

Its a nice improvement, if only Lee would make the dies to a higher quality level. It will be interesting to see what happens in the reloading die industry once the patent runs out.