I have the Hornady concentricity gauge with the pusher that I use ALL the time since they are all off a little. I don’t have a gauge to check just the fired brass though.
Larger than MOA groups. What would you check first?
- Thread starter Gun Man Dan
- Start date
I’m surprised no one has mentioned at least getting the recoil lug bedded. A good bedding job used to be mentioned before anything else in older threads.
don't force a gun to shoot something it clearly doesn't like. change powder and or bullet.
i shot loads of 1/4 moa groups at 100 yards for years in my 223 using absolutely terrible brass.
getting lapua brass is a good idea but it's not the cause of your problem
For sure I don’t think it’s the whole of my issue.
DShortt
Gold $$ Contributor
One of these will show you everything you want to know about run-out. I don't like the Hornady gauge with the pusher. All you're really doing is shoving your bullet sideways in the neck. Probably creating more problems with a loose neck then.As for run-out in fired cases, that's a whole 'nuther can 'o worms IF there actually is.run-out.
DShortt
Gold $$ Contributor
I'll add, run-out isn't necessarily a huge problem. Doesn't seem to be the same answer from everyone.
DaveTooley
Gold $$ Contributor
If you have a bad marriage between bullet and the barrel nothing will make it shoot. Try more conventional shaped bullets meaning tangent ogive.
Do you have any recommendations for a tangent ogive bullet? I’m not sure how to tell or if it says on the box. It looks like polymer tips are usually secant ogive.
DaveTooley
Gold $$ Contributor
Berger makes BT Target bullets. Some of the Sierra MK's are not VLD's. I did some testing in 260 Rem, all bullets seated to mag length and the best bullet by far at 100 yds. was a Sierra 130 gr. tipped Gameking. Second place was Hornady A-Tips. The A-Tips took the lead as the distance increased. Don't shy away from lighter match bullets.
I picked up some 130’s
It’s a chamber brush sitting with solution on it. I can’t clean the chamber with a bore guide. Good thought though.
I tried this and it cut my run out in half when measured at the ogive. Thank you.
Good deal, that method has been mentioned here a lot in the past.
I have been turning my brass when sizing like that also to full length size it twice too.
I was stubborn thinking it was my reloads. I’m hoping it’s a scope issue and all will be solved in a couple weeks when it comes back.
Don’t get into things you don’t understand completely without a skilled person to teach you. You can make things much worse than they already are and it end up costing you a whole of money.
Also when cleaning a carbon ring (which plays into the equation) you need to know what not to do or you can move the lands considerably. You really need a mentor to help you learn before you go through the school of hard knocks spending money every step of the way. Ask around and find someone close to you that will help, start by asking your gunsmith.
Could you help me then? What things should I not do when cleaning the carbon ring?
PM sent
searcher
Gold $$ Contributor
I think when we get unacceptable groups in a new barrel, it is easy to fear the worst when it isn't shooting right. That you dropped your rifle on the turret adds to the possibilities of what "could" be wrong. If I replaced a scope every time I dropped a rifle (I have spent a LOT of time in the field and those things happen....) or re-bedded and second-guessed the barrel job every time I got 1" groups out of a new tube, I'd have a garage full of scopes and barrels and spent countless hours fixing things that were of no concern.
It is always best to start with the basics, assuming your equipment is O.K. Only after ruling out that your new tube doesn't like a particular bullet or powder, and subsequent changes in components do not show the desired result, would I have true cause to question my equipment. Your new tube won't likely prefer the same load the old one did. The new tube may not like that bullet or powder. A change to Lapua brass is not going to improve the problem enough to fix it - not by a long shot - so for now, I'd forget about brass changes. Continue with what you are using - primers included. there is nothing wrong with four-year-old primers unless you really stored them really badly - and unless they got wet or something - they should be fine. Even then, I simple substitution for another primer is cheap compared to bedding jobs and scope changes. Stick to the inexpensive things first.
If I were in your shoes, here is what I'd do.1) I'd check your headspace on your brass. Learn how to do this if you don't know how with a measuring tool. You don't want any more than .002" of headspace, ideally. 2) I believe you said you were using Redding Bushing dies. Use only about .002" smaller bushing than your loaded round brass measures at the end of the neck by the bullet. 3) Back off your load to the start level on doing your powder ladder, increasing no more than .5 grains until you get acceptable results - or until you see signs of over pressure. Load your bullet at least .010" longer than where it makes contact with the lands when chambered. The reason for this is to help counteract concentricity problems you may be having. Most rigs will shoot better with this "soft jam" than way off the lands, especially if bad concentricity is a contributing factor. 4) If no acceptable groups, seat the load to .020" off the lands and repeat the ladder. If no improvement. Stop right there and change either the powder or bullet. Doing further seating and neck tension changes won't make a group shrink from 1" to tiny, in my experience. It will help - but not cure 1" MOA.
I have (and have had) many very high-end target rifles with barrels that initially shot like crap with the bullet and powder combo I first tried. I have gotten 1" to 2" groups out of lots of Bartlein, Shilen, Krieger, Hart and Brux barrels. All those barrels ended up shooting from great to fantastic once the right powder was used with them. In my experience, the powder is more important than the bullet in some respects - as when a good powder is found - it will shoot many different bullets. Most memorable is my BAT-action Krieger barrelled 7 MM Rem Mag. Shot 1" to 3" groups with many bullet/powder combos. Put some Reloader 22 in (seventh powder) and found I could shoot three different weights of Barnes TTSX's into 1/4". So - if your tube is giving you 1" groups and you listen to all the advice of changing half of everything on your rifle to fix it - you will, more often than not, be chasing your tail in an expensive manner. Hope you get it sorted out!
It is always best to start with the basics, assuming your equipment is O.K. Only after ruling out that your new tube doesn't like a particular bullet or powder, and subsequent changes in components do not show the desired result, would I have true cause to question my equipment. Your new tube won't likely prefer the same load the old one did. The new tube may not like that bullet or powder. A change to Lapua brass is not going to improve the problem enough to fix it - not by a long shot - so for now, I'd forget about brass changes. Continue with what you are using - primers included. there is nothing wrong with four-year-old primers unless you really stored them really badly - and unless they got wet or something - they should be fine. Even then, I simple substitution for another primer is cheap compared to bedding jobs and scope changes. Stick to the inexpensive things first.
If I were in your shoes, here is what I'd do.1) I'd check your headspace on your brass. Learn how to do this if you don't know how with a measuring tool. You don't want any more than .002" of headspace, ideally. 2) I believe you said you were using Redding Bushing dies. Use only about .002" smaller bushing than your loaded round brass measures at the end of the neck by the bullet. 3) Back off your load to the start level on doing your powder ladder, increasing no more than .5 grains until you get acceptable results - or until you see signs of over pressure. Load your bullet at least .010" longer than where it makes contact with the lands when chambered. The reason for this is to help counteract concentricity problems you may be having. Most rigs will shoot better with this "soft jam" than way off the lands, especially if bad concentricity is a contributing factor. 4) If no acceptable groups, seat the load to .020" off the lands and repeat the ladder. If no improvement. Stop right there and change either the powder or bullet. Doing further seating and neck tension changes won't make a group shrink from 1" to tiny, in my experience. It will help - but not cure 1" MOA.
I have (and have had) many very high-end target rifles with barrels that initially shot like crap with the bullet and powder combo I first tried. I have gotten 1" to 2" groups out of lots of Bartlein, Shilen, Krieger, Hart and Brux barrels. All those barrels ended up shooting from great to fantastic once the right powder was used with them. In my experience, the powder is more important than the bullet in some respects - as when a good powder is found - it will shoot many different bullets. Most memorable is my BAT-action Krieger barrelled 7 MM Rem Mag. Shot 1" to 3" groups with many bullet/powder combos. Put some Reloader 22 in (seventh powder) and found I could shoot three different weights of Barnes TTSX's into 1/4". So - if your tube is giving you 1" groups and you listen to all the advice of changing half of everything on your rifle to fix it - you will, more often than not, be chasing your tail in an expensive manner. Hope you get it sorted out!
DShortt
Gold $$ Contributor
This thread is very educational in a somewhat disturbing way.
There is no 'easy' button. Lots of things to learn, most of it will be the hard way.
It's an expensive sport. Assuming you are looking to shoot well enough to have bragging rights.
Opinions are all over the place. Like watching a super ball at high velocity in a box. Because many only understand what worked for them in their particular
circumstances.
There's usually more than one way to correct a problem. Some take longer and are more complicated. Some manage to be correct the first time. But that's the exception, not the rule.
Just my personal observations and worth exactly what you paid for it.
There is no 'easy' button. Lots of things to learn, most of it will be the hard way.
It's an expensive sport. Assuming you are looking to shoot well enough to have bragging rights.
Opinions are all over the place. Like watching a super ball at high velocity in a box. Because many only understand what worked for them in their particular
circumstances.
There's usually more than one way to correct a problem. Some take longer and are more complicated. Some manage to be correct the first time. But that's the exception, not the rule.
Just my personal observations and worth exactly what you paid for it.
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