Larger than MOA groups. What would you check first?

[Gun Man Dan]

Since you are shooting 140's, have you thought about working up to the Carolina load? 44.3 gr of H4831sc. Your target suggests to me, your hand loads are better than factory ammo(a good thing). But the vertical dispersion(reloads) would lead me to a powder charge weight change(increase if safe). Are you reading winds, using flags while shooting?

I can change the powder load for sure. I’m not sure how to check pressures so I’ll have to read up more on that since I’ve been conservative on my powder charges. Yesterday there were no winds. It was perfect.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

I have seen just 0.2-0.25 gr of powder adjustment(small to medium size cases) reduce the vertical dispersion noticeably. Going over 40 gr of H4350 will put you near or at a compressed powder charge. I tend to avoid compressed charge weights, especially for hunting loads or rounds that maybe stored before shooting.

 

[CA_Shooter]

Do you have targets you can post the images of from before the rifle/scope drop?

 

[Gun Man Dan]

Do you have targets you can post the images of from before the rifle/scope drop?

I don’t. Sorry. I don’t take pictures of my targets very often. I shipped the scope off today so I hope that is the fix. I don’t know. Now it’s just a waiting game. Time to pull out the .22 and save some money shooting cheap with my pistol.

 

[Webster]

It’s a Vortex Venom. The rifle fell out of my vise from my table and landed in the top turret. It seemed to fire decent but I figured the scope survived and it was my hand loads that were the problem. I’m going to rule out the scope now. It’ll be a couple weeks but it’ll save some money pursuing other things that may not be the problem.

You said you dropped the scope on the turret with the weight of the rifle on it. I wouldn't think of doing anything until I got the scope back and retest the rifle with no changes to ammo.

 

[RegionRat]

The gun used to shoot great with the old barrel but then it didn’t so I got a new barrel and things went shotgun pattern on most targets it felt like.

A barrel change is a significant detail, in fact it isn't a detail but a major point since the performance has never been good.

The troubleshooting chart still hasn't been narrowed down very much in this thread, and it will take longer when you hold back significant amounts of information.

ETA: sometime we are trying to cut down on a large list of troubleshooting branches. At present, we are still near the point where everything is still on the table. This performance problem has symptoms that can be due to so many parameters that we are trying to narrow down the tasks. Sending off the scope or testing with a different one is important too, but it still leaves a whole lot of branches in the troubleshooting path.

Don't know if you ever planned on owning a chronograph, but it does help understand when there is something really wrong with a system in the trouble branches that are on the velocity path like fouling or bad loading.

Some barrels take no break in at all and are leveled off as fast as the scope is zeroed, others take nearer to 200 rounds, and everything in between. But the only way to know without wasting time and guesswork is to track velocity during start-up and then to study the cleaning needs of the gun.

I would remove the muzzle devices and give it a good scrub, then start tracking the round count and watch the velocity to determine the cleaning regime. If you don't get a decent performance within about the first 300 rounds, there is the need to seek outside help.

There is no shame in seeking help in that situation. You don't do this for a living and would have to spend a whole lot more to learn it all yourself.

Don't be fooled by the internet and marketing stories, you would be surprised to learn that many folks have rigs that don't shoot well but they never speak up.

A good quality custom barrel has potential, but not a guarantee. Expectations are it should be below 1 MOA on a sporter, and better with heavier profiles. Factory rigs are a random lottery, some will make you happy and some won't.

When you are unknown, and the issues are vague... It helps to describe the rig, the history, and your history up front. Good Luck and in for the range reports.

 

[Gun Man Dan]

A barrel change is a significant detail, in fact it isn't a detail but a major point since the performance has never been good.

The troubleshooting chart still hasn't been narrowed down very much in this thread, and it will take longer when you hold back significant amounts of information.

ETA: sometime we are trying to cut down on a large list of troubleshooting branches. At present, we are still near the point where everything is still on the table. This performance problem has symptoms that can be due to so many parameters that we are trying to narrow down the tasks. Sending off the scope or testing with a different one is important too, but it still leaves a whole lot of branches in the troubleshooting path.

Don't know if you ever planned on owning a chronograph, but it does help understand when there is something really wrong with a system in the trouble branches that are on the velocity path like fouling or bad loading.

Some barrels take no break in at all and are leveled off as fast as the scope is zeroed, others take nearer to 200 rounds, and everything in between. But the only way to know without wasting time and guesswork is to track velocity during start-up and then to study the cleaning needs of the gun.

I would remove the muzzle devices and give it a good scrub, then start tracking the round count and watch the velocity to determine the cleaning regime. If you don't get a decent performance within about the first 300 rounds, there is the need to seek outside help.

There is no shame in seeking help in that situation. You don't do this for a living and would have to spend a whole lot more to learn it all yourself.

Don't be fooled by the internet and marketing stories, you would be surprised to learn that many folks have rigs that don't shoot well but they never speak up.

A good quality custom barrel has potential, but not a guarantee. Expectations are it should be below 1 MOA on a sporter, and better with heavier profiles. Factory rigs are a random lottery, some will make you happy and some won't.

When you are unknown, and the issues are vague... It helps to describe the rig, the history, and your history up front. Good Luck and in for the range reports.

I didn’t mention the new barrel since this whole thread wasn’t in regards to the old barrel. I appreciate the help.

 

[M-61]

It’s a Vortex Venom. The rifle fell out of my vise from my table and landed in the top turret. It seemed to fire decent but I figured the scope survived and it was my hand loads that were the problem. I’m going to rule out the scope now. It’ll be a couple weeks but it’ll save some money pursuing other things that may not be the problem.

Average vise is 32-36” above the floor.
This is a huge drop. Landing on the turret…
I wouldn’t have looked much further than the scope after I cleaned up my vomit.

 

[Gun Man Dan]

Average vise is 32-36” above the floor.
This is a huge drop. Landing on the turret…
I wouldn’t have looked much further than the scope after I cleaned up my vomit.

You are right. I was dead. Scope is being looked at now. It’s likely the issue.

 

[Dimner]

I kinda feel like this thread is the ADD of reloading and shooting practices.

 

[Gun Man Dan]

I kinda feel like this thread is the ADD of reloading and shooting practices.

It does feel all over the place doesn’t it? Part of that is I didn’t know what info to include in my original post.

 

[Bronsin]

Assuming this rifle was shooting well to start with, the first thing I would do is make sure there is no hard carbon in the throat and all copper was cleaned out. Then check to see how much the lands have moved in the barrel. Take the clean barrel with the seating depth reset, and go try again. Fouling and throat wear are the first 2 things I would check.

 

[M-61]

Fouling and throat wear are the first 2 things I would check.

That 30+ inch drop on the scope turret.
That’s #1
What a horrible sound that must have been.

 

[Gun Man Dan]

That 30+ inch drop on the scope turret.
That’s #1
What a horrible sound that must have been.

It was sickening to watch.

 

[Webster]

That 30+ inch drop on the scope turret.
That’s #1
What a horrible sound that must have been.

90 replies. He dropped it on the scope.

 

[M-61]

I have a bench dedicated to cleaning/ repairing/ mounting scopes.
One thing I was sure of was that no way can the barrel extend anything over the bench end, ever.
Not sure what the major cause of knocking a rifle to the ground is, but an overhanging barrel has to be in the running. So easy to bump.
I read about that somewhere. LOL

 

[Jsal7133]

all screws

what he said. I always get a baseline torque value on all screws and make note so I can re-verify later if something pops up out of the blue. That would be number 1. If you have the luxury of a second scope you could try that route. Me personally I have found good primers seated the same under 42.3g H4350 has worked in several rifles with .007” to the lands. A chrono will help you see how consistent your loading is exiting the business end. Can be quite the rabbit hole with some rifles. Good luck

 

[harro]

Have you previously consistently shot sub inch groups with this rifle or another one ?
I’m not trying to be smart but I put the word consistently in the first sentence because the reality is that the majority of people aren’t consistent 1/2 inch or better shooters . Go to a range and watch what people are actually achieving averaged over all groups . Not just the three targets that they take home to show their friends .
Your right to question your equipment, but only after you have questioned yourself.

 

[Gun Man Dan]

Have you previously consistently shot sub inch groups with this rifle or another one ?
I’m not trying to be smart but I put the word consistently in the first sentence because the reality is that the majority of people aren’t consistent 1/2 inch or better shooters . Go to a range and watch what people are actually achieving averaged over all groups . Not just the three targets that they take home to show their friends .
Your right to question your equipment, but only after you have questioned yourself.

My wife and I are pretty good shots. We are capable of outshooting what the rifle is currently putting on paper compared to the old barrel in its prime. Something is off for sure. It’s very likely the scope, but I bought some Lapua brass last night to iron out my hand loads anyway when the scope comes back.

 

[williepete]

GMD what countour is your shilen
stay with me on this I might be able to help.