It's here guys. Graf's and Kaltron have received their first shipment of Lapua 260 remington brass and are filling backorders now. First shipments from Graf's should go out tomorrow.
Lapua 260 brass.
- Thread starter KevinThomas
- Start date
Apparently, and for a nice price: http://eabco.com/Lapua01.html
Kevin:
Can you explain why Lapua .260 Remington brass sells for 33% more than Lapua .308 Winchester brass (Grafs, the differential is even larger at other vendors)? I could understand it there was substantial tooling, production, or development costs but the only difference in these 2 cases is the neck diameter. I just don't get it.
Jim
Can you explain why Lapua .260 Remington brass sells for 33% more than Lapua .308 Winchester brass (Grafs, the differential is even larger at other vendors)? I could understand it there was substantial tooling, production, or development costs but the only difference in these 2 cases is the neck diameter. I just don't get it.
Jim
rcw3
Site $$ Sponsor
JimT said:
I am not sure that Lapua needs to justify the pricing of their 260 Rem brass (i.e. if their pricing does not meet your needs, there's Remington, Nosler, etc. 260 Rem brass you can buy), but I am certain that 260 Rem brass will only be a small fraction of what their sales of 308 Winchester brass is and from that perspective for them to tool up and do a production run of 260 Rem brass will cost them a lot more per piece than 308 Win brass.
Robert Whitley
JimT,
Not really my end of the boat, but it would seem that Robert's already outlined the situation pretty reasonably. Larger production runs equal lower standard costs, which can in turn be passed on to the customers. Smaller runs are more expensive, and that's likely as not the reason for the difference. Aside from that, at the dealer level, we're not the ones who set pricing, the dealers are.
Not really my end of the boat, but it would seem that Robert's already outlined the situation pretty reasonably. Larger production runs equal lower standard costs, which can in turn be passed on to the customers. Smaller runs are more expensive, and that's likely as not the reason for the difference. Aside from that, at the dealer level, we're not the ones who set pricing, the dealers are.
Kevin:
Thanks for responding! The tooling/production cost has less and less applicability in this day and age. I just don't see it with respect to the brass in question. Of course, if there was research and development costs involved that would be another matter.
One only needs to examine the reloading component industry to see the fallacy of this argument. Why do powders generally cost the same (within a manufacturer) even though there are wide disparities in production amounts??
Primers? Who would have thought that an 8mm Sierra 200 grain Matchking would cost less than a .308 Sierra 200 grain Matchking? Need I go on?
Anyway, the cost difference is a minute fraction of what my time is worth, so I will cease necking up .243 Lapua brass and "bite the bullet" (no 8mm Matchkings on the menu) and buy your .260brass.
Jim T.
Thanks for responding! The tooling/production cost has less and less applicability in this day and age. I just don't see it with respect to the brass in question. Of course, if there was research and development costs involved that would be another matter.
One only needs to examine the reloading component industry to see the fallacy of this argument. Why do powders generally cost the same (within a manufacturer) even though there are wide disparities in production amounts??
Primers? Who would have thought that an 8mm Sierra 200 grain Matchking would cost less than a .308 Sierra 200 grain Matchking? Need I go on?
Anyway, the cost difference is a minute fraction of what my time is worth, so I will cease necking up .243 Lapua brass and "bite the bullet" (no 8mm Matchkings on the menu) and buy your .260brass.
Jim T.
Since all my other lapua cases do so well I will buy it for whatever they want.Lapua is the finest,longest lasting brass on the market,so in the long run since it usually lasts longer than lets say remingto it is cheaper in the long run.You dont have to sort it so much as other brass either.I want some,LOL
jonbearman said:
That is exactly what Lapua is betting on Jon, I'm with you.
Jim,
You summed it up nicely but may have answered your own question when you mentioned "in this day and age." You have to remember, the technology used to turn out brass and bullets is precisely the same as it was a hundred years ago. While we now have CNC machinery to cut new tooling, the presses used to produce the items themselves hasn't changed much over the intervening decades. It's still a very labor intensive process to change tooling from one caliber to another, even if they're in the same "family" of cases. Ditto for the bullet production end of things. Give you an example; a certain bullet maker I'm quite familiar with has the two original presses that started the company back in 1947. These were purchased used, as government surplus for one of the many army ammunition plants that were shut down after WWII. They'd been in use there for several decades by then. While you might think they'd be on display in the company museum, no, they're on the production floor still cranking out bullets today. The only difference in them now from say, 50+years ago, is the addition of some computer sensors and safety shields. But basically, it's the same press. Change overs still take the same amount of time (maybe a bit longer, due to the computer stuff in place now), and it still takes the press off line for the same amount of time. Smaller runs cost the company more money, period.
You summed it up nicely but may have answered your own question when you mentioned "in this day and age." You have to remember, the technology used to turn out brass and bullets is precisely the same as it was a hundred years ago. While we now have CNC machinery to cut new tooling, the presses used to produce the items themselves hasn't changed much over the intervening decades. It's still a very labor intensive process to change tooling from one caliber to another, even if they're in the same "family" of cases. Ditto for the bullet production end of things. Give you an example; a certain bullet maker I'm quite familiar with has the two original presses that started the company back in 1947. These were purchased used, as government surplus for one of the many army ammunition plants that were shut down after WWII. They'd been in use there for several decades by then. While you might think they'd be on display in the company museum, no, they're on the production floor still cranking out bullets today. The only difference in them now from say, 50+years ago, is the addition of some computer sensors and safety shields. But basically, it's the same press. Change overs still take the same amount of time (maybe a bit longer, due to the computer stuff in place now), and it still takes the press off line for the same amount of time. Smaller runs cost the company more money, period.
Kevin, could you tell me what the diameter of the neck wall thickness is of the Lapua 260Rem brass?
I don't understand how anyone can expect a company to produce a product, that a good dozen people on this forum, have been clammering for, and sell it cheap. The price of metals has skyrocketed in the past several years. I make bullets and can tell you that J4 jackets have doubled in price since 2000. I also make stainless, telescoping windflag stands. The stainles tubing, rod and bar stock, that I use, has tripled since the early '90's.
I commend Lapua for producing a superior product and, listening to our wants and needs. i also think it's a shame that our USA brass makers can't match Lapua's quality.
I commend Lapua for producing a superior product and, listening to our wants and needs. i also think it's a shame that our USA brass makers can't match Lapua's quality.
To all, and especially Kevin: Some time ago, I tried making my own Lapua 260 brass, but necked down 308 instead of necking up 243 because of the cost difference, and because I also have a 308. Anyway, the results were not good. Of course, I neck turned, removing a lot of brass to get the proper loaded neck diameter to keep pressures safe. Unfortunately, Remington 260 brass gave me more consistent results, and I'm still not sure why.
Can I expect better results from the real deal? I'm almost afraid to gamble on it until I wear out what I've got.
Any advice is greatly appreciated, especially any ideas on why I failed with my necked down attempt. Thanks!
Can I expect better results from the real deal? I'm almost afraid to gamble on it until I wear out what I've got.
Any advice is greatly appreciated, especially any ideas on why I failed with my necked down attempt. Thanks!
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
DocEd, I couldn't agree with you more, people ask and they received. The price will come down on the .260 eventually I would imagine but even if it doesn't your time is worth something and there is a lot of work in necking up or down and turning. I don't shoot a .260 but if I did I wouldn't hesitate buying the Lapua. I think part of the reason weDocEd said:
(the U.S.A ) doesn't produce the same quality as say Lapua is the quality of wire, we have some of the finest equipment money can build but I have noticed a lot of variance in wire ( The brass wire used in building the cases)
I don't know why the European companies can get the better wire but I believe that is a factor.
Wayne.
KevinThomas said:
Kevin,
I work in the old CCI/Speer plant and we still have some of Vernon Speer's original presses from the 1940's as well and there still churning out bullets
My son and I thank you and all of Team Lapua for building such wonderful products.Wayne.
terryperkins said:
Terry,
The first samples arrived on my desk this morning, being shipped from one of our importers. I spent about a half hour this morning going through these and would have to say the average is probably just a tad under .015" for this batch. To be specific, I had samples running anywhere from .0146" on the thin end to .0152" on the high. That was on a standard .0001" ball mic. Running these same samples over one of Sinclair's Case Neck Sorting Tools using a standard .001" dial indicator, they ran right at .015" and were within .001" concentricity for the 25 pieces I sampled.
Should be good to go!
CP,
Hard to say without seeing the cases, and the forming steps you took to get there. We do tend to use some very hard brass, and that will (of course) have a significant effect on how well the cases form. You might have been better off annealing prior to starting, or even using an intermediate die or tow, annealing in between steps. Just hard to say without actually seeing these, but I've seen individual lots that were much easier to form than others. Many years ago I used to shoot a lot of Long range Handgun Silhouette competition, using a 7mm TCU. T/C is very specific about warning you not to use military cases, as they can't be formed without splitting at the case mouth. Being that I had a ton of LC 5.56mm brass on hand, I tried it anyway, and they were right. I split about 60%-70% of the brass I passed over the tapered expander ball. Running these same cases through an annealing process, I was able to make several hundred cases, losing only one or two in forming them. They gave excellent accuracy and life, and from that point on, LC was about all I ever used for that game. Made up a bunch in 6mm and 6.5mm TCUs as well, but always made sure to anneal them before forming. Same results; good life and excellent accuracy. Definately worthwhile for some applications, and I'd probably want to do that before reforming these cases. In the meantime, there's alwways that new, correctly headstamped 260 Lapua brass.
Hard to say without seeing the cases, and the forming steps you took to get there. We do tend to use some very hard brass, and that will (of course) have a significant effect on how well the cases form. You might have been better off annealing prior to starting, or even using an intermediate die or tow, annealing in between steps. Just hard to say without actually seeing these, but I've seen individual lots that were much easier to form than others. Many years ago I used to shoot a lot of Long range Handgun Silhouette competition, using a 7mm TCU. T/C is very specific about warning you not to use military cases, as they can't be formed without splitting at the case mouth. Being that I had a ton of LC 5.56mm brass on hand, I tried it anyway, and they were right. I split about 60%-70% of the brass I passed over the tapered expander ball. Running these same cases through an annealing process, I was able to make several hundred cases, losing only one or two in forming them. They gave excellent accuracy and life, and from that point on, LC was about all I ever used for that game. Made up a bunch in 6mm and 6.5mm TCUs as well, but always made sure to anneal them before forming. Same results; good life and excellent accuracy. Definately worthwhile for some applications, and I'd probably want to do that before reforming these cases. In the meantime, there's alwways that new, correctly headstamped 260 Lapua brass.
Wayne,
Many thanks for the kind words, and the informed comments about the machinery. Amazing, isn't it? People often don't get the fact that parts and tooling weear out and are replaced constantly, but the basic press itself will pretty much run forever. Keep 'em well greased (daily) and change out the bearings from time to time, and you CAN'T wear them out.
Used more than a few of your products over the years, too. When I was still in LE, our department's issue duty load was the CCI 200 grain HP in 45 ACP. Seen it used many times and never saw a failure to perform. Very decisive load, and I'd be more than happy to carry that today if I were still carrying a 45. Great round!
Many thanks for the kind words, and the informed comments about the machinery. Amazing, isn't it? People often don't get the fact that parts and tooling weear out and are replaced constantly, but the basic press itself will pretty much run forever. Keep 'em well greased (daily) and change out the bearings from time to time, and you CAN'T wear them out.
Used more than a few of your products over the years, too. When I was still in LE, our department's issue duty load was the CCI 200 grain HP in 45 ACP. Seen it used many times and never saw a failure to perform. Very decisive load, and I'd be more than happy to carry that today if I were still carrying a 45. Great round!
Thank you, Kevin. I will give the new stuff a whirl. In the meantime, any ideas on what I can do to salvage what I've already formed from 308? When I said the results were not good, I was speaking strictly of accuracy and getting pressure signs earlier than I had anticipated.
As far as what I did to form the cases, I took them out of the box, lubed the inside of the necks with RCBS case lube 2 on a nylon brush, lubed the outside of the case with Imperial sizing wax, and ran it through a 260 FL sizing die. Then I outside turned the case necks. That took a few tries before the loaded rounds had enough clearance for my chamber.
So, if there's anything that can be done to make them shoot well, I'm all ears. Hate to waste almost an entire box...
Thanks!
As far as what I did to form the cases, I took them out of the box, lubed the inside of the necks with RCBS case lube 2 on a nylon brush, lubed the outside of the case with Imperial sizing wax, and ran it through a 260 FL sizing die. Then I outside turned the case necks. That took a few tries before the loaded rounds had enough clearance for my chamber.
So, if there's anything that can be done to make them shoot well, I'm all ears. Hate to waste almost an entire box...
Thanks!
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
Charlie Pappa,
Welcome to the forum. I have found I have concentricity problems if I size to much at once, if you are sizing up .243 I would run a .257 mandrel through it first then the .264 mandrel then the f/l .260 die if you want or just turn the brass after the .264 expander mandrel, I myself have many different mandrels that I have built in .001 increments so I can take it up .002 or .003 at a time. As far as it not shooting well, does it shoot well using standard Rem or Win .260 brass and not the necked up or down Lapua brass? another words is the rifle capable of good groups? Good luck with your project sir and let us know how it does with the new .260 Lapua brass
Wayne.
Welcome to the forum. I have found I have concentricity problems if I size to much at once, if you are sizing up .243 I would run a .257 mandrel through it first then the .264 mandrel then the f/l .260 die if you want or just turn the brass after the .264 expander mandrel, I myself have many different mandrels that I have built in .001 increments so I can take it up .002 or .003 at a time. As far as it not shooting well, does it shoot well using standard Rem or Win .260 brass and not the necked up or down Lapua brass? another words is the rifle capable of good groups? Good luck with your project sir and let us know how it does with the new .260 Lapua brass
Wayne.
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