ttfreestyle
Silver $$ Contributor
It’s a ladder-group at that point.
Ladder test
- Thread starter HFV
- Start date
I've used the ladder method to find loads for several cartridges. Most recently, for my 264 WM. Tests with H1000 and 7828 gave a 'group' that even posting to a couple of forums, nobody could see any nodes. Tried RL 33 and in a 10-shot ladder (each shot .3 grains difference) I found 3. Top node was showing pressure signs (extractor 'swipes' and rather large growth above the belt) so I backed down to the 'middle' load.
I recently ran one with a bolt 223. I only had a 100 yard range to work with on this one so I shot at a small-bore target (one that had 9 different bulls). I found a range that showed several loads with nearly the same point of impact and went back and ran it again with the middle load. That 5 shot group measured .45". Not benchrest quality but, for a hunting load, that will work.
I recently ran one with a bolt 223. I only had a 100 yard range to work with on this one so I shot at a small-bore target (one that had 9 different bulls). I found a range that showed several loads with nearly the same point of impact and went back and ran it again with the middle load. That 5 shot group measured .45". Not benchrest quality but, for a hunting load, that will work.
So here you have it straight from the Bible- Rifle Accuracy Facts by Harold R. Vaughn. You'll notice he continually mentions shooting groups and at no time did he say he got these facts from Retired.
you have an issue with simple english ?
go back and read what i actually said
to be clear THIS THREAD IS ABOUT LADDER'S.
and i NEVER said you could not work up a load with GROUPS.
BUT AGAIN THIS IS A LADDER THREAD.
and if you think any book is a bible, you are stuck in the past.
what did harold say about the 6mm dasher.....
nothing, not in the bible, pass it by
go back and read what i actually said
to be clear THIS THREAD IS ABOUT LADDER'S.
and i NEVER said you could not work up a load with GROUPS.
BUT AGAIN THIS IS A LADDER THREAD.
and if you think any book is a bible, you are stuck in the past.
what did harold say about the 6mm dasher.....
nothing, not in the bible, pass it by
The post was placed for folks with an open mind.
Harold Vaughns Ladder will work with any cartridge.
Harold Vaughns Ladder will work with any cartridge.
ballisticdaddy
Silver $$ Contributor
I have tried this method during break-in as well but most of the end up doing it again once the barrel settles down and starts to keep more consistent velocity. Have seen up to 100 fps from break-in to settling down around 100-150 rounds fired.
I have my own method too.
Usually I want the high node so I concentrate there and also for the cartridges that I've used for years I know approximately where to start the powder charge range. For the medium sized cases and smaller ones I use .1 grain increments for the large one with a 80 grain capacity I use .2 instead. I feel doing it this way gives me most, if not all, the info I need in one trip.
My recipe is picking a clam morning and the earlier the better, that often means, or what seems most advantageous anyway, is a day or two after a weather front has past through and before another comes in.
I like doing ladder testing for the more accurate rifles at 400Y or farther if possible now but I'm still learning my lessons. The reason why is a more accurate rifle can put most of the holes too close together at 300Y which can be confusing. In fact the last ladder I did at 250Y for a small varmint cartridge all 14 shots except for one were crammed into 1.25", I got the info I needed but I got lucky because 3 consecutive shots went into .3". This time I picked the low node because .3" at 250Y was fine by me for that cartridge and I wanted to extend barrel life as a side benefit. There were other reasons I used 250Y but I won't go into it right now.
It's a total pain but I drive down to mark each shot, my reasoning is the barrel cools the same amount for each shot which has been optimal for me due to past failures when I first tried ladder testing when I let the barrel get too hot.
The ladder I did before the one I just mentioned was also 14 shots in .1 gr increments, the last 3 consecutive were touching at 323Y so I didn't bother with a seating depth test. I pretty much have that down because my same reamer is used every time and that depth works well for the same bullet I've been using.
It doesn't always work perfectly. I've had to scratch my head and try again another day which was the time before these last two tests I just mentioned. On the first test for a big cartridge I discovered I was over a full grain lower than the high node, I got lazy and assumed when I stopped that the last charge would be plenty hot, nope I should have kept going, worse come to worse all that was needed was some bullet pulling when I got home but that mistake cost me another trip. For the second test I found the high node and it all came together, 3 consecutive shots into 1/2" at 400Y.
What I've observed is if it's mostly calm out when you do your ladder, is a node tightens in the horizontal like it does in the vertical, which makes picking a load easier.
I'm not a benchrest shooter so I don't have the accuracy requirements many do so there's that. I suppose further tuning could be a benefit but if I can get 3 shots into sub half moa I'm happy.
Thank you, Steve, and remember this is the method I use. It's not my method but Harold Vaughn's. I'm not that smart.
I head down to mark each shot or group as well and still sometimes make mistakes on the target and have to reconcile what happened later. I can say that if some one is going to do any sort of incremental charge or ladder testing and wants the best data to interpret, then they better have a solid rest to shoot from. An uneven collapsible lawn chair with a camera tripod or 2 is nice for ease of set up and loading into car/truck/van quickly but that's about it...
yes i would not try it if one did not have solid repeatable setup.
get a spotting scope and log each shot at the bench on a second target.
you can paint the bullets with markers and they will in turn mark the target.
go see the long range forum.
get a spotting scope and log each shot at the bench on a second target.
you can paint the bullets with markers and they will in turn mark the target.
go see the long range forum.
I don't have a official rifle range to go to that goes past 100Y so I go out into the FS and shoot F class style off the ground.
I use a joystick rest and a heavy rear bag most of the time so it's plenty steady.
Done it off a Harris bipod a few times too and gotten acceptable results, just gotta use good form and follow through.
I have never been able find one powder charge more accurate than another with a repeatable test on a different day at the range.
I was conducting tests when I was 3 years old, but did not get paid for designing tests until I was 28 years old.
I stopped getting paid for designing tests when I was 58 years old.
Toward the end, my amplifier designs were manufactured and being auto tested. I was given statistical feedback.
The hardware was testing much more accurate and precise than I would have predicted.
It seems errors cancel errors more than errors add.
I was conducting tests when I was 3 years old, but did not get paid for designing tests until I was 28 years old.
I stopped getting paid for designing tests when I was 58 years old.
Toward the end, my amplifier designs were manufactured and being auto tested. I was given statistical feedback.
The hardware was testing much more accurate and precise than I would have predicted.
It seems errors cancel errors more than errors add.
farmerjohn
Gold $$ Contributor
Do what?
Is that you, Guff?
obviously you haven't been testing much, lol
Your first statement is troublesome. Perhaps there are variables unknown to you ? Define your “accuracy”. Are you aware of the sheer weight of numbers of people who can in fact do what you cannot ? Time for introspection.
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