Ladder Test Analysis

[Zero333]

According to your data...

RL-17 = 41.4
H-4350 = 41.5

However....
All the best shooters in the Nation are familiar with the method you are using...
So....
If the best shooters in the Nation say use paper targets for load development and plot the point of impact....

Audette Laddder testing is still the best way to get long range loads with the least amount of shots.


The method you are using is a hit and miss because 1 shot means nothing, 3 shots mean little, 5 shots are good enough, but 10 shots of the same charge weight over a chronograph is ideal.

Velocity on it's own is....... um..... just velocity.

 

[cmat1120]

I have 35 rounds loaded up that I'll try to shoot at 1-200 yards this week. 10 at 41.5(the extra 5 are for zero confirmation and some fouling), and then 5 each for 41.3, 41.4, 41.6 and 41.7. I also have 5 of the RL17 at 41.4 just to see how it does. Just because I know it'll make a lot of you happy if this turns out to be garbage I'll post my results after I go

 

[retired]

shooting two different powders will foul your data.
you need to clean/foul with each powder..so those 5 17's may not do so well

I have 35 rounds loaded up that I'll try to shoot at 1-200 yards this week. 10 at 41.5(the extra 5 are for zero confirmation and some fouling), and then 5 each for 41.3, 41.4, 41.6 and 41.7. I also have 5 of the RL17 at 41.4 just to see how it does. Just because I know it'll make a lot of you happy if this turns out to be garbage I'll post my results after I go

 

[fatheeler]

will anything change between new brass and once or twice fired

 

[cmat1120]

Got back from the range and my main thought is I need to buy more 22lr and get some more practice in lol. Based on the target(100yds) and the velocity from 5 shot strings I think I'll load up more 41.6 and next time I go to the range bring 2-300 22lr and shoot those up before switching to the 6.5. Hopefully the scope on my 10/22 is alright. I've had doubts about it before.

 

[retired]

i think the proper reply is "we told you so".
you have no good group, not one.
velocity alone does not make small groups.

 

[Dos XX]

Load between 8 & 9 and work on seating depth.

 

[cmat1120]

i think the proper reply is "we told you so".
you have no good group, not one.
velocity alone does not make small groups.

That's not necessarily cause of the load that's probably cause of me. I'd bet money 41.6 is a good load, I just need to practice and/or have an actual rest instead of just shooting off my hand.

I still don't understand why everyone wants call me out on "should've used a target" when I've said a bunch of times that that wasn't an option.

 

[Webster]

"All of them coming out of my Ruger American Predator chambered in 6.5CM with a 22" barrel. Also, this barrel had a total of 68 rounds fired through it before starting this test, so I do realize its possible fps will climb a little more over time, but it seemed to have leveled out before I started the tests.(Saw a 100fps rise in the 41.7 RL17 load from start to pre test and then it leveled out)"

Your rifle isn't a target rifle it's a $550 rifle with a tupperware stock. I have a Rem 700 ADL Varmint with a tupperware stock. The barrel touches the stock for it's entire length. Close to zero receiver contact with the stock. I have a lot of improvements. New Kreiger barrel ect. Shoots .350" or smaller. Anyhow I think you should be shooting test targets like the ones in Tony Boyers book. The target looks like 5 bulls across and 5 down. Each column is an increasing powder charge and going down each column is increasing jump. You look for a small group with a small group on each side of it. You can shoot very small groups at 200 yards with bad ES. You probably cannot shoot a test target like this unless you have good shooting skills. The test target has to represent what the rifle can do and not your gun handling skills. Do you use wind flags? If you are not shooting serious comp at long distance you shouldn't even care what ES is or look for a flat spot with FPS. Small round groups is all that matters. Don't pull the trigger unless the crosshair isn't centered on the bull.

 

[cmat1120]

"All of them coming out of my Ruger American Predator chambered in 6.5CM with a 22" barrel. Also, this barrel had a total of 68 rounds fired through it before starting this test, so I do realize its possible fps will climb a little more over time, but it seemed to have leveled out before I started the tests.(Saw a 100fps rise in the 41.7 RL17 load from start to pre test and then it leveled out)"

Your rifle isn't a target rifle it's a $550 rifle with a tupperware stock. I have a Rem 700 ADL Varmint with a tupperware stock. The barrel touches the stock for it's entire length. Close to zero receiver contact with the stock. I have a lot of improvements. New Kreiger barrel ect. Shoots .350" or smaller. Anyhow I think you should be shooting test targets like the ones in Tony Boyers book. The target looks like 5 bulls across and 5 down. Each column is an increasing powder charge and going down each column is increasing jump. You look for a small group with a small group on each side of it. You can shoot very small groups at 200 yards with bad ES. You probably cannot shoot a test target like this unless you have good shooting skills. The test target has to represent what the rifle can do and not your gun handling skills. Do you use wind flags? If you are not shooting serious comp at long distance you shouldn't even care what ES is or look for a flat spot with FPS. Small round groups is all that matters. Don't pull the trigger unless the crosshair isn't centered on the bull.

I understand it's not a target rifle. It is 100% free floated and only contacts at the bedding v blocks. Most users get 1/2-1moa with it so 1moa is all I'm expecting. I'll definitely look into that target and probably get a benchrest

 

[RampedRaptor]

Honestly. Find a safe charge weight that gives you the velocity you want. Load a ton of rounds up and go shoot. ES, SD, Neck tension, OBT, Nodes, Etc don't matter "proportionally" when groups are in the 1.5-2moa range. Go practice and have fun.

 

[cmat1120]

Ap

Honestly. Find a safe charge weight that gives you the velocity you want. Load a ton of rounds up and go shoot. ES, SD, Neck tension, OBT, Nodes, Etc don't matter when groups are in the 1.5-2moa range. Go practice and have fun.

You're right lol. Part of why I wanted a low es/SD is because that's one thing I can do towards a good load without affecting it with skill. I'll bring a rest next time and see how I do. I'll probably just load a bunch of 41.6 and see how small groups I can get on and off rest as well as practice with a few hundred 22 rounds at 25-50yds

 

[RampedRaptor]

Ap

You're right lol. Part of why I wanted a low es/SD is because that's one thing I can do towards a good load without affecting it with skill. I'll bring a rest next time and see how I do. I'll probably just load a bunch of 41.6 and see how small groups I can get on and off rest as well as practice with a few hundred 22 rounds at 25-50yds

I think that's a great idea. Confidence breeds accuracy. See if you can shoot a couple groups of 10 under a inch with that 41.6 charge. Once you can do that, then the sound of steel being hit from farther distances always puts a smile on my face and will likely yours.

To add. After you get more rounds down the barrel then shoot another ladder test. Compare your results and see if there is any meaningful correlation.

 

[cmat1120]

Good point. Part of the problem is all my training with rifles is to put as many holes in a man sized target as quickly as possible so I probably rushed a lot of shots today. (I'm used to basically just catching the reticle as it passes back over the target after the previous shot). Without worrying about different loads and velocity I should be able to focus on just my shooting fundamentals and make some progress.

Just curious what kind of power scope do most people use for this kind of shooting?

 

[ballisticdaddy]

That's not necessarily cause of the load that's probably cause of me. I'd bet money 41.6 is a good load, I just need to practice and/or have an actual rest instead of just shooting off my hand.

I still don't understand why everyone wants call me out on "should've used a target" when I've said a bunch of times that that wasn't an option.

I believe the reason that you keep getting the old "should have used a target" comment is because they are correct. Have done enough load development to realize the chrono data is just that "data" and we are all striving for one ragged hole, that is at least my goal. Many more times than I care to admit, i have seen numbers that "should" have produced tiny groups that did not show itself on the target. And on the other hand sometimes you find great groups that do not have the best numbers based on chrono data. My recommendation is that time is best spent behind the trigger with a target to confirm or deny what the numbers are showing you before you make any conclusions. Good luck and enjoy the process!

 

[cmat1120]

You're right. I guess I'm. More frustrated by the fact that everyone keeps telling me that even though I've agreed with them many times lol. I was never arguing that the chronograph data was as good or better, it was just all I had.

Also, idk if u should make a separate thread, but any advice from anyone on a good bench rest setup for the least money? Should I just get some dead shot bags or a cheaper end adjustable rest? Those are the only options I can really afford.

This one has good reviews:
Guide Gear Bench Rest

 

[onelastshot]

In terms of reloading, one of my key go to powders was 4350 until I tried out RL17. Yes, you are correct, it is more heat sensitive but only at considerable deviations in temperature. In comparison to 4350, I obtained 100-150 higher velocity and tighter groups once I found the sweet spot. My rifle is a 22-250. My suggestion is simple, stick with one powder conducting ladder tests until you've exhausted possibilities. Your rifle will tell you if it likes the powder or not. There are simply too many variables when you introduce 2-3 different powders.

 

[ballisticdaddy]

Also, idk if u should make a separate thread, but any advice from anyone on a good bench rest setup for the least money? Should I just get some dead shot bags or a cheaper end adjustable rest? Those are the only options I can really afford.

This one has good reviews:
Guide Gear Bench Rest

A rear bag like this one https://www.brownells.com/shooting-...avy-bottom-rabbit-ear-rear-bag-prod25835.aspx works well and is not too expensive

Bipods come in all shapes and sizes but a good all-around bipod like this one https://www.brownells.com/shooting-...2-brm-bipod-sling-swivel-mount-prod87338.aspx works very well especially for the price

 

[MattS]

@ballisticdaddy
Funny I just PM’d cmat1120 those exact two items needed. Hope we can help him get squared up and enjoy this side of the shooting sports!

 

[ballisticdaddy]

@ballisticdaddy
Funny I just PM’d cmat1120 those exact two items needed. Hope we can help him get squared up and enjoy this side of the shooting sports!

Hard to be an "Accurate shooter" without a solid setup those items have been around for many moons for a good reason