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Ladder Teasting with range brass

I was wondering if I could use some good quality range brass Sako, Norma etc fully prepeared as if you were using it for a match. Then once it's fireformed in my rifle after full length sizing, could I use it to ladder test or would the results be differnt then those I would of got with my normal lapua brass?
 
If the capacity is different you will need to fine tune the powder charge a few tenths, in the same direction as the wc difference.
 
I would suspect the results to be different. The formulas for brass varies by company. They will probably be a different capacity and harness, thus affecting results. Matt
 
Ok thank you all! That's all I needed to know. I will have to use some of the same lot or load a 50 shot ladder test over 2 targets!
 
Just for an example. I have some older, unknown dasher cases I use for fouling /sighters. I have to spin my clicker down 5 clicks (2.5 thousands) just to have the bump be close to my fresher brass. If the shoulder is firmer, then the necks are too.... you see my point I'm sure.

Tom
But Tom, that's just a difference in work hardening, one could remove that with annealing right?
 
I would suspect the results to be different. The formulas for brass varies by company. They will probably be a different capacity and harness, thus affecting results. Matt
Matt, what you say is true but I wonder if anyone has ever tested to see if it makes any difference. Not talking about shoulder or necks here as those can be annealed to get close?
 
Matt, what you say is true but I wonder if anyone has ever tested to see if it makes any difference. Not talking about shoulder or necks here as those can be annealed to get close?
I never tested because I use Norma in WSM and Lapua in Dasher. That's the only brass I ever use. It has to make some difference, I would believe because of the way the pressure would be handled by the remaining case, not including the neck and shoulder. Matt
 
Tom and Matt – yes I can certainly understand, as I too only use Lapua and keep everything absolutely segregated in terms of firing and so forth.

The reason I asked is because I am thinking of shooting a DMR (Designted Marksman Rifle) match which requires the use of an AR and pretty high round count. Since this is a gas gun and I figured I am going to lose the brass anyway and the accuracy is not exactly like shooting F-class, I am playing with the idea of shooting this with range brass.

What I have done is to take what I have and first weight sorted them before going through my usual brass prep and that includes an annealing stage. It’s a fun match for me more for experience than something I am out to win but distances range from point blank to 600 yards, both of which I have experience with but not together. So this would be interesting but I saw what the OP was asking, thus my comments/questions.

Still, it brings in questions which I don’t have answers to i.e. if I weight sort and presumably minimize volume variation. How much does the metal composition of the case affect precision/accuracy? Not something that we normally deal with in precision.
 
It would probably not hurt you that much. Because of the platform and high round count it would not be as beneficial as a high end bolt gun. It probably would have a lot to do with is it offhand, how many yards and rate of fire. Matt
 
It would probably not hurt you that much. Because of the platform and high round count it would not be as beneficial as a high end bolt gun. It probably would have a lot to do with is it offhand, how many yards and rate of fire. Matt
All good questions Matt but unfortunately in a tactical match, those are usually things you don't know until you actually get on a stage. About the only thing I know is the distance and round count. I doubt if there is any requirement for distance/offhand as in a high power match as that is not what they are going for, more likely prone/bipod distance shooting. I will be shooting 77 grain Noslers and I would be happy with +/- 1 MOA accuracy at 600 (and good SDEV). In the end, due to the fact that most rounds would be CQB i.e. under 100, I will be shooting with a 1-6x Accupoint and so not looking for sub-MOA accuracy at distance and quick accurate close in shots and no hits on No-shoots are likely more important. With this game, your time on the clock plus misses/penalty s your score.
 
I was wondering if I could use some good quality range brass Sako, Norma etc fully prepeared as if you were using it for a match. Then once it's fireformed in my rifle after full length sizing, could I use it to ladder test or would the results be differnt then those I would of got with my normal lapua brass?

Don't know why you would even think about doing that
 

My guess is the OP is trying to save his Lapua brass and he has some range pickup to do the Ladder testing. If this is for a precision rifle, I think this would not be a good idea as 1) the OP would likely not have enough range brass to be as picky as I am in terms of case weight (I have thousands…), and 2) if it does not work out, and the range brass gives an inaccurate read with the Ladder testing, this will just lead to more wastage of time and component.

To me Ladder test are much more tricky than an OCW since you only fire one round per powder charge and one could easily be misdirected especially if one was using range brass on top. I would suggest doing an OCW with the Lapua.
 
To me Ladder test are much more tricky than an OCW since you only fire one round per powder charge and one could easily be misdirected especially if one was using range brass on top. I would suggest doing an OCW with the Lapua.

Shoot 2 or 3 separate ladders, and compare the dispersion's, if you need the extra confidence.

A noticeable advantage I see in Ladder verses OCW, is using one and the same point of aim (POA), instead of having to move the rifle around to multiple aim points, which can and does effect battery, cant, and posture. Also the lower ammo count needed and barrel heat scenario's gives more advantage yet to ladder testing (of the same amount of charge increments).
OCW works good/better for those who only have 100yds to do all there testing - IMO
Donovan
 
I don't want to mess up all my batching of my lapua brass. Of coarse I will weigh them and try and get them as close is possible to lapua.
 
Shoot 2 or 3 separate ladders, and compare the dispersion's, if you need the extra confidence.

A noticeable advantage I see in Ladder verses OCW, is using one and the same point of aim (POA), instead of having to move the rifle around to multiple aim points, which can and does effect battery, cant, and posture. Also the lower ammo count needed and barrel heat scenario's gives more advantage yet to ladder testing (of the same amount of charge increments).
OCW works good/better for those who only have 100yds to do all there testing - IMO
Donovan

As far as I can tell, it is crazy to shoot a single round per charge and make heads or tails about the result, so yes your only chance of making sense out of a ladder is to shoot it multiple times. But if you do this, then where is the savings in terms of ammo count? Barrel heat problems is the same in both, you just got to wait a let the barrel cool between each round.

As for same POA, well when I do OCW, I shoot 8 targets on a single sheet of 8”x11” paper, at 100 yards, that is hardly any change in POA, but if we are really worried about that, shooting 3 ladders would also require one to do the same i.e. change POA each time.
 
I don't want to mess up all my batching of my lapua brass. Of coarse I will weigh them and try and get them as close is possible to lapua.
With the difference in formulas for the brass, I would think the results would be not beneficial. I would probably take the ones that are off in weight from the Lapua and use them. I would try to keep them as close as possible. They can then be used for foulers on sets down the road. Matt
 
As far as I can tell, it is crazy to shoot a single round per charge and make heads or tails about the result, so yes your only chance of making sense out of a ladder is to shoot it multiple times. But if you do this, then where is the savings in terms of ammo count? Barrel heat problems is the same in both, you just got to wait a let the barrel cool between each round.

As for same POA, well when I do OCW, I shoot 8 targets on a single sheet of 8”x11” paper, at 100 yards, that is hardly any change in POA, but if we are really worried about that, shooting 3 ladders would also require one to do the same i.e. change POA each time.
jlow

From what you've wrote here and in other posts, you've never ran a Ladder test, which makes your input to them crazy itself.

8 Increment comparison:
- OCW: 8 Increment targets x 3-times each = 24 POA re-positions/re-aims, from 24-rounds of ammo needed.
- Ladder: 1 POA for all 8 Increments = 1 POA from 2/3 less ammo and 2/3 less barrel heat factors to control.

Even running a 2nd confirmation Ladder would be 22 less POA's movements from 1/3 less ammo and barrel heat factors.
Donovan
 
Donovan – sorry but no, I’ve run ladders but gave up on them for the reasons I stated.

But your numbers a bit skewed. If you run the ladder two times, you only save 1/3 and have 1/3 less barrel heat to control. That of course assume you don’t have to run it a third time (as per your own “Shoot 2 or 3 separate ladders”?)

I also tend to run abbreviated OCW because I generally know where the accuracy node is via QL and so I only run to confirm which means I don’t need as wide a powder charge to test. As you know, for any caliber, there usually is only two usable accuracy node due to pressure and MV and really only the higher MV one is useful. I also like to see my repeats shots next to each other and not on a separate sheet but hey if shooting 8 extra rounds is that big a deal with you, you should stick with the Ladder test.

The way we have to think about this is the reliability of the information obtained with each round is exactly the same regardless of whether we call it “ladder” or “OCW” – there is no magic here. The more rounds you shoot for either, the more reliable the information. Dan Newberry could have chosen 2 rounds for each powder charge to get the information he is looking for, but instead he chose 3 because it is the sweet spot in terms of ammo usage and information gained. Doing it on the cheap increase your chance of getting unreliable results which may mean you have to come back and retest which of course means you waste more ammo. This is why I like OCW over ladder.
 
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I had a box of 50rds that a friend gave me after he got out of 223. We used the same exact load, and same prep techniques, and I've shot his 223 ammo in the past. This time, my accuracy was horrible! I'm talking a .5MOA rifle was now a 1.5MOA rifle. I couldn't figure out why until I noticed it was mixed headstamp brass. Moral of the story, I think you are best using the same brass or some with similar capacity for development.
 

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