King of 2 mile

[dkhunt14]

Be careful thinking a br guy can’t run his app and make cold bore hits at distance once in a while, just saying

Read my previous post. They were hunters before they started BR. It was just a way to compare guns and have some fun competing. Matt

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

Be careful thinking a br guy can’t run his app and make cold bore hits at distance once in a while, just saying

On practice day for unlimited class at E2K I dialed 52 moa on the Big Dawg 338 Lapua improved and had 5 shots on paper that day. Shot 3 five shot practice groups and had all shots on paper on practice day.

 

[hubel458]

In 416 HSM got a 420 gr long target bullet 3800,

with plain barrel, no brake, on intermediate action, Ed,,

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

I like the format too, but make no mistake, being one of the first 3 teams up has to be a disadvantage. As long as all teams can spot what's going on, sooner or later the light bulb comes on. You'd be a fool not to gather data of previous shooters. With no sighters and cold bore counts, sometimes I think it would only be fair to have anyone not shooting to not be allowed on glass, period.

No way to prevent a team member who is also shooting to gather that data though. Yes the conditions do change (to a known value believe it or not, or the same pattern every year) but as long as team members can spot for each other, preventing shooters from having some data is impossible.

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

Competition is critical. Any form of it. Without peers you have no clue how you stand and if your even any good or not. It drives innovation. 2 moa would still be good if BR never existed. We wouldnt understand building a position and bone support if not for high power and so on. The collective knowledge we all have is because of competition shooters. I dont think ELR will ever be popular. But Im sure there will be innovation because of it that will benefit all shooters.

I think Rimfire is going to make ELR popular. Anyone can compete, and at a much lower cost.

 

[hubel458]

I agree Doc, and once they get the bug, part of them will go up.
It is quit an artraction...Ed

 

[Delfuego]

I agree Doc, and once they get the bug, part of them will go up.
It is quit an artraction...Ed

 

[hubel458]

In 416 HSM got a 415 gr long target bullet 3800,

with plain barrel, no brake, on intermediate action,

Now my 416 HE gets same 415gr bullet to 3300.Ed

 

[hubel458]

Here is picture of our 416HSM cases with screw in shellholders,

for Ammomaster, etc, and slip in shellholders for regular presses

Also have some for big LEE Classic and Smart Reloader presses..

A 378 WEA MAG in picture for comparison...


Second is stacks of 416 HSM, about a third fireformed

and the rest to be fireformed... So far total about 1700, Ed

 

[davidjoe]

Very hard to arrange simultaneous firing , due to the long flight time and
shot spotting issues . Many of us have shot competitions where at the
start of the detail , wind picks up significnatly and we drop points .
I’ve had it the other way too , drop down to shoot when the flags drop
and it’s happy times .

Several very talented shooters got screwed by the wind at KO2M this year,
despite conditions being generally better than last year . Anyone who has
run a match knows the difficulties involved . Generally the KO2M crew do
a great job , with what is an emerging discipline .

Maybe there is a way to run shooters through a little faster , by allowing
another shooter to start on the first target , once the first shooter has
moved to the second target . This would require more RO’s and co -
ordination , and introduce potential for confusion and problems .

I live in Australia , and intent to shoot this comp in the future . The
logistics of exporting a firearm and ammunition to US are prohibitive ,
and the thought of expending all that effort to potentially fire only a few
shots is chilling , but still enticing !

They could indeed run more than one target at once. Also, they could pair fire. This event may become like BSN in F-Class, where the match turns away ready competitors who have the skill along with investment in specialized gear, but few large scale events to go to.

As an aside, - absolutely agree that weight limits, especially evolving ones, are onerous.

Can someone explain the logic of why a typical FCSA match shot at 1,000 yards permits a 50 pound 50 cal, but when the distance to be shot is tripled, that same 50 cal from 1,000 yard match now needs to be less substantial?

No one is requiring shooters to select smaller calibers that don’t need to weigh 50 pounds. I would contend that the desirable 2-1/2 inch action for 50’s and .416’s with appropriate scaled barrels and stocks push 50 fitted out. So is the move to suppress custom builds of the big head cases, because only factory builds easily meet weight.

For the guys loyal to .338, this is essentially putting a 17 pound weight limit on your guns and saying it’s common knowledge that a 700 action can work for an LM. But in all likelihood you don’t want the smallest action that works.

The weight reductions squeeze the BMG case guns unfairly and the only question is why that is going on.

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

They could indeed run more than one target at once. Also, they could pair fire. This event may become like BSN in F-Class, where the match turns away ready competitors who have the skill along with investment in specialized gear, but few large scale events to go to.

As an aside, - absolutely agree that weight limits, especially evolving ones, are onerous.

Can someone explain the logic of why a typical FCSA match shot at 1,000 yards permits a 50 pound 50 cal, but when the distance to be shot is tripled, that same 50 cal from 1,000 yard match now needs to be less substantial?

No one is requiring shooters to select smaller calibers that don’t need to weigh 50 pounds. I would contend that the desirable 2-1/2 inch action for 50’s and .416’s with appropriate scaled barrels and stocks push 50 fitted out. So is the move to suppress custom builds of the big head cases, because only factory builds easily meet weight.

For the guys loyal to .338, this is essentially putting a 17 pound weight limit on your guns and saying it’s common knowledge that a 700 action can work for an LM. But in all likelihood you don’t want the smallest action that works.

The weight reductions squeeze the BMG case guns unfairly and the only question is why that is going on.

- That is VERY Well Spoken !!

 

[dkhunt14]

They could indeed run more than one target at once. Also, they could pair fire. This event may become like BSN in F-Class, where the match turns away ready competitors who have the skill along with investment in specialized gear, but few large scale events to go to.

As an aside, - absolutely agree that weight limits, especially evolving ones, are onerous.

Can someone explain the logic of why a typical FCSA match shot at 1,000 yards permits a 50 pound 50 cal, but when the distance to be shot is tripled, that same 50 cal from 1,000 yard match now needs to be less substantial?

No one is requiring shooters to select smaller calibers that don’t need to weigh 50 pounds. I would contend that the desirable 2-1/2 inch action for 50’s and .416’s with appropriate scaled barrels and stocks push 50 fitted out. So is the move to suppress custom builds of the big head cases, because only factory builds easily meet weight.

For the guys loyal to .338, this is essentially putting a 17 pound weight limit on your guns and saying it’s common knowledge that a 700 action can work for an LM. But in all likelihood you don’t want the smallest action that works.

The weight reductions squeeze the BMG case guns unfairly and the only question is why that is going on.

I believe it is personal agendas. Matt

 

[hubel458]

Bob Snapp, 90, the great Gun Craftsman, of

Clare, Michigan, passed away Jan 28th....

He was an esteemed member of the

American Custom Gunmakers Guild,

Being its president in 1992..He liked

working with Martini Cadet singleshot rifles.

He worked with a company testing armor long time

ago, made them a 50cal by necking down 20mm.

We lost a great friend,,,Ed

 

[M14AMU]

This makes about as much sense as putting a side saddle on a pizz ant!!

 

[hubel458]

He thought his was the first 20mm necked to 50 cal. I held one
in my hand and posted pictures years ago...



About shellholder supply for big cases,

RCBS and others make slip in holders for shotgun cases..

Here are various sizes........


16ga-- .810" rim,

20ga-- .760" rim,

24ga .725" rim,

28ga .680" rim....

 

[hubel458]

We fireform the 416 HSM with 65 gr of medium speed

surplus powder, with rest of case filled with farina

and grits mix, with a play dough plug in the neck.

It is loud, so we shoot it into big container through a barrel size

size hole, so the sound is muffled, so it doesn't deafen us..


It is great getting more companies making 416 caliber bullets,

long target and bore rider bullets. Ed..



....

 

[Tuxedo007]

I agree with the criticism of the "field portable" crock. I like the idea of breaking it into 2 classes. For scoring, what about going into reverse? At any distance, for example, first shot would be full value, second shot would be 90% value, third shot would be 80% value etc.?

Why?

 

[mongo chicago]

Why?

Part 1 - One complaint was it takes over a year for some to get the rifles made, then they change the weight limit. Almost none of "those" rifles are what I consider to be field portable. Dividing into 2 weight classes should alleviate that.

Part 2 - If a person hits on all of his shots, he will accumulate something just under 200,000 points. To me that's getting just plain silly. Absolutely the first shot on any stage should be worth the most - but I don't think a shooter who hits all shots on the first stage should be able to outscore someone who is able to advance to several stages further. Which was another complaint that I saw posted.

Just kicking around ideas in response to what others posted. Hope that answers your questions. If they don't change a thing, I would be just as happy.

 

[hubel458]

I agree the first shot if a hit count more, but maybe only twice the yardage, 2nd shot 1.5 times , 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc, 1 times..

Some more of my fun..

Wonder if a PTRD with 5 ft long barrel is stable enough

for ELR , rebarrel to 416 and use our 416 HSM, 500 gr bullet ....

.Here is up north guy using 585 HE in a PTRD with inserts,

Light load.....Inserts are in the shape of the 14.5mm case....

HERE ia video, 585 Hubel Express and water jugs - slow motion

750 gr with 155gr RE17, just a moderate load.....Ed

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

Part 1 - One complaint was it takes over a year for some to get the rifles made, then they change the weight limit. Almost none of "those" rifles are what I consider to be field portable. Dividing into 2 weight classes should alleviate that.

Part 2 - If a person hits on all of his shots, he will accumulate something just under 200,000 points. To me that's getting just plain silly. Absolutely the first shot on any stage should be worth the most - but I don't think a shooter who hits all shots on the first stage should be able to outscore someone who is able to advance to several stages further. Which was another complaint that I saw posted.

Just kicking around ideas in response to what others posted. Hope that answers your questions. If they don't change a thing, I would be just as happy.

This isn't an uncommon complaint. If you wanted to do the math, you can find some of the target data sheets here: https://elrcentral.com/event-results/ Specifically the KO2M tabs all have target data sheets with statistics etc in them. So for fun. If you hit shots 1, 3, 4, and 5 on target 1 and missed everything else (you hit 4 total shots) then that is 17325 points. But if another shooter hits his last shot on every target then they will have only scored 7251 points. Even though shooter number 2 advanced to every target and hit the exact same number of shots just on increasingly difficult targets.

You can play around with the numbers if you want using the target data sheets I have posted for different events.