KG-12 Test Results?

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I did just add a few drops to both, to overflow the little rim inside the cap, to get them as even as is reasonable for this. Started with both bullets standing up, then tipped them over. You could see the PO brightened the base almost instantly...fwiw.

 

[Fuj]

Mike.....What does the KG-12 smell like to you ?? Now, I like my
Sweets for copper. If anyone remembers the test with Sweets when
there was some bogus claims about it eating our precious gun barrels
I soaked a barrel end in Sweats in one shot glass and in another a
copper wheat penny. After a week, the barrel was untouched and the
penny's sharpness was gone. At one month the barrel was still
untouched and on the penny, Lincoln's face was just a smoothed
over image. At that point somewhere prior to a month, the Ammonia
in Sweets would have dissipated and stopped working.....Why I ask
what KG-12 smells like is I can't find another chemical in the books
other the Ammonia to get the job done. However some citrus acids
are used for cleaning copper......Looking forward to your results.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Mike.....What does the KG-12 smell like to you ?? Now, I like my
Sweets for copper. If anyone remembers the test with Sweets when
there was some bogus claims about it eating our precious gun barrels
I soaked a barrel end in Sweats in one shot glass and in another a
copper wheat penny. After a week, the barrel was untouched and the
penny's sharpness was gone. At one month the barrel was still
untouched and on the penny, Lincoln's face was just a smoothed
over image. At that point somewhere prior to a month, the Ammonia
in Sweets would have dissipated and stopped working.....Why I ask
what KG-12 smells like is I can't find another chemical in the books
other the Ammonia to get the job done. However some citrus acids
are used for cleaning copper......Looking forward to your results.

Very little if any smell..to me. Certainly not a strong ammonia smell. As for your sweets test...I did a similar test to that as well. I found that what didn't get air to it didn't corrode but that the bbl stub used developed real corrosion at the top of the column of liquid. I guess it strips all the oil and the moisture right at that point, or maybe caustic fumes...started the corrosion. But it was serious rust...really serious rust. fwiw

 

[JEFFPPC]

Sweets was in the test, it was towards the bottom of the list.

Your Correct, I missed that. Now I question that test and here is why. I have taken numerous guns from others who declared them clean and copper free, and with Sweets shown them they still had lots of copper in them. But, I will try some K12 and check it out. The other thgn I would question is Ballistol which is supposedly vegetable oil.

 

[JEFFPPC]

Very little if any smell..to me. Certainly not a strong ammonia smell. As for your sweets test...I did a similar test to that as well. I found that what didn't get air to it didn't corrode but that the bbl stub used developed real corrosion at the top of the column of liquid. I guess it strips all the oil and the moisture right at that point, or maybe caustic fumes...started the corrosion. But it was serious rust...really serious rust. fwiw

That makes some sense in that I have read ammonia does not corrode until it forms into ammonia salts which cpmes from the ammonia drying out which mifgr happen and the top of a column of it. I know that for 20 years I have been using Sweets soaking for 24hrs at a time and never had any issues. In facr copper has been easy for me. Much harder to get all carbon trace out with out mechanicsl means or some type or abrasives. Hey it's winter, we need something to chat about,lol.

 

[Gargoyle]

My copper fouling problems were long gone by the time I got to removing the hard carbon...

 

[Ned Ludd]

The experimental procedure used for such a test is important. I was not able to find any description of how the test was conducted. For example, the relative concentration of copper-removing agent(s) in copper cleaners is typically not always high. If only a small amount was used to barely cover a bullet, the copper-removing agent could easily have been limiting.

A friend once accidentally/unknowingly spilled the better part of a bottle of Bore Tech Cu+2 copper remover inside a box that also contained loaded ammo while traveling to a match. Left overnight, it reportedly completely dissolved through bullet jackets in places, which seems a pretty good testament to me regarding its copper-removing properties. Finally, I would urge everyone to carefully look through the Material Safety Data Sheet of any such cleaning product they might use, just so they know what's in it. KG12 contains cyanide, not something that should be casually used by the inexperienced or incautious.

 

[Fuj]

This is a snip of what I came across for KG-12's partial MSDS.

Interesting about the hydrocyanic acid. It's a major chemical
used in the plating industry.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

This is a snip of what I came across for KG-12's partial MSDS.

Lol! We all die of something!! Lots of what we do will kill us, according to the state of Kalifornication. Just use common sense. I grew up on a farm, with my hands in chemicals that drops of pure stuff(paraquat) are known to kill people. It's a wonder I'm still here and might or might not live a long life but I regret little. The stuff that killed Sacrates grows on creek banks around here(poison hemlock). The things contained in gunsmoke are proven a lot worse than 2nd hand smoke, too.
I'm not saying to do some of the things I've done but rather, be smart and don't be afraid of everything. I played with mercury too! I know.. it shows!

 

[JEFFPPC]

My copper fouling problems were long gone by the time I got to removing the hard carbon...

I agree. Copper is easy. Carbon, not always so.

 

[Acyr]

I have been using KG12 for years now. I gave up trying to find something that works better.
Just beware it also works well on eating away your brass jags

 

[Tod Hendricks]

KG12 is the best non abrasive copper remover I’ve used!

Its very easy to do the Pepsi challenge with any other cooper removing solvent, just put a drop of each copper remover liquid on a bullet, from my tests it was pretty obvious.

 

[Fuj]

Lol! We all die of something!! Lots of what we do will kill us, according to the state of Kalifornication. Just use common sense. I grew up on a farm, with my hands in chemicals that drops of pure stuff(paraquat) are known to kill people. It's a wonder I'm still here and might or might not live a long life but I regret little. The stuff that killed Sacrates grows on creek banks around here(poison hemlock). The things contained in gunsmoke are proven a lot worse than 2nd hand smoke, too.
I'm not saying to do some of the things I've done but rather, be smart and don't be afraid of everything. I played with mercury too! I know.. it shows!

And I asked you to see what it smelled like !!......Ooops.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

And I asked you to see what it smelled like !!......Ooops.

Post 23 was my reply to that question Fuj

 

[AckleymanII]

Since I started focusing on the carbon removal, the copper issue became moot. Makes me wonder what Clean is to some guys with what caliber and number of rounds fired on the barrel? A 6ppc/68g will be a tad bit different from a 7 Mag with 180g. YIKES!

It is a given that I use barrels that do not have cutter marks going from breech to muzzle.

Best to bore scope a barrel prior to chambering as QC can vary....Start at the Start!

 

[J.d. Popkes]

Witches Brew on a brush. Done. If there’s a streak or two of copper left there’s a dozen things that dissolves that easily and quickly. My patience level and enthusiasm for cleaning is dwindling so I skip right to where I will end up anyway because of the carbon, some form of aluminum/oxide abrasive. Cleaning sucks so I don’t prolong it.

 

[jackieschmidt]

For years, Sweets and Barns was about the most aggressive copper remover you could get.
Years ago, I used them religiously along with Shooters Choice.

Then I read an article by John Krieger where he said that he did not think that you should clean his cut rifled barrels to the point of removing the very fine residue in the minute linear marks that were a result of the cut rifled process.

I started using just Shooters Choice, then later just Butches Bore Shine When it appeared on the scene.

Aggregates did not suffer. I have stuck to that regiment ever since. Bronze Brushing with a brush saturated with Butches, then enough saturated patches to get all of the blue from the brush out. Keep this up untill the patches are white.

let it soak while I reload for the next or target, then patch it out before I go back for the next relay.

A number of years ago, during another “which is the best cleaning method marathon”, I took my borescope to the range with my Rail Gun. I had cleaned the barrel with JB compound, Sweets, and Butches. It looked like a new Blank.

The late Gene Bukys was with me.

I fired a couple of clearing rounds, and did nothing but run a wet patch of Butches through the bore, then making sure it was dry. I looked at it with my borescope. It looked like I had just shot a Match with it.

I then shot several groups which were really nice. I cleaned it with my usual cleaning regiment between relays, then shot another group. It was great.

We then cleaned it as usual, looked at it with the borescope, and sure enough, it had all sorts of very tiny streaks. I cleaned it again, still there. We decided the only way to get that out was with JB.

But before doing that, we shot another group, and the Rifle was stil shooting great.

We then proceeded to JB the heck out of it. Gene had some Barns copper remover, we used that. We worked on the barrel until it showed no streaks.

We then put a couple of clearing rounds, and shot a group. Like before, it stacked one bullet atop the other.

I cleaned it it with my usual regiment. Once again, thise tiny streaks were still visible. The Rifle shot great.

Gene and I spent the better part of the day doing this.

Our conclusions. Krieger was correct.

I did a write up on Benchrestcentral, explaining everything we did.

Since then, many shooters have performed the same type of exercises. But the discussion will go on and on. “How clean does a barrel have to be”. Granted, in Short Range, we clean them after every target, so I guess there is never a chance of it really building up. But stuff is still in there.

And regardless of how squeaky clean you get a barrel, after a couple of shots, it’s back to square one.

In Disciplines where shooters shoot as many as 100 rounds without stopping to clean, things are probably different. And, we were also using a cut Rifled barrel, not a Buttoned barrel. They may act differently.

Since we did this, I just clean the way I always have, I haven’t opened that jar of JB since.

One thing I do religiously though, is I clean my barrels when they are still warm, right off of the line. I have never put a Competition Benchrest Rifle it a case dirty. The very first thing I do after each group or target is clean it.

 

[KMart]

For years, Sweets and Barns was about the most aggressive copper remover you could get.
Years ago, I used them religiously along with Shooters Choice.

Then I read an article by John Krieger where he said that he did not think that you should clean his cut rifled barrels to the point of removing the very fine residue in the minute linear marks that were a result of the cut rifled process.

I started using just Shooters Choice, then later just Butches Bore Shine When it appeared on the scene.

Aggregates did not suffer. I have stuck to that regiment ever since. Bronze Brushing with a brush saturated with Butches, then enough saturated patches to get all of the blue from the brush out. Keep this up untill the patches are white.

let it soak while I reload for the next or target, then patch it out before I go back for the next relay.

A number of years ago, during another “which is the best cleaning method marathon”, I took my borescope to the range with my Rail Gun. I had cleaned the barrel with JB compound, Sweets, and Butches. It looked like a new Blank.

The late Gene Bukys was with me.

I fired a couple of clearing rounds, and did nothing but run a wet patch of Butches through the bore, then making sure it was dry. I looked at it with my borescope. It looked like I had just shot a Match with it.

I then shot several groups which were really nice. I cleaned it with my usual cleaning regiment between relays, then shot another group. It was great.

We then cleaned it as usual, looked at it with the borescope, and sure enough, it had all sorts of very tiny streaks. I cleaned it again, still there. We decided the only way to get that out was with JB.

But before doing that, we shot another group, and the Rifle was stil shooting great.

We then proceeded to JB the heck out of it. Gene had some Barns copper remover, we used that. We worked on the barrel until it showed no streaks.

We then put a couple of clearing rounds, and shot a group. Like before, it stacked one bullet atop the other.

I cleaned it it with my usual regiment. Once again, thise tiny streaks were still visible. The Rifle shot great.

Gene and I spent the better part of the day doing this.

Our conclusions. Krieger was correct.

I did a write up on Benchrestcentral, explaining everything we did.

Since then, many shooters have performed the same type of exercises. But the discussion will go on and on. “How clean does a barrel have to be”. Granted, in Short Range, we clean them after every target, so I guess there is never a chance of it really building up. But stuff is still in there.

And regardless of how squeaky clean you get a barrel, after a couple of shots, it’s back to square one.

In Disciplines where shooters shoot as many as 100 rounds without stopping to clean, things are probably different. And, we were also using a cut Rifled barrel, not a Buttoned barrel. They may act differently.

Since we did this, I just clean the way I always have, I haven’t opened that jar of JB since.

One thing I do religiously though, is I clean my barrels when they are still warm, right off of the line. I have never put a Competition Benchrest Rifle it a case dirty. The very first thing I do after each group or target is clean it.

Jackie, if you would like a little KG-12 to try, I will be glad to drop some off at your shop. Just let me know when you will be around. I bought a quart last time around. They are in Taylor Tx. and sell all kinds of cleaning agents.
Ken

 

[divingin]

Mike.....What does the KG-12 smell like to you ??

No ammonia in KG-12. I did once find what the reactant was, but don't remember now.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Definitely doing something. Both are almost like syrup by now. Frankly, by now when I did this before, the kg12 had seriously etched and even pitted the bullet. Not sure if it needs changed for fresh cleaner or if the kg12 has lost some effectiveness with age. The bottle is several years old. Maybe a combination. Probably should've used a little bigger cup at least.
I've also read or heard that patch out only works for a set amount of time, like 24hrs without accelerator and only maybe an hour with. Both numbers are from a old man's memory so I wouldn't bet on them.
Might wait the 24 hrs and freshen Both up in a little more solution and wait again.