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Kelbly or Borden

Trev,,,the action you need is a Kelbly Grizzly II or Atlas,,,,both have Rem 700 footprint (multitude of stocks available--including many Kelbly versions that they make in house,,)(and they are compatable with Elisio chassis),,drop out triggers,,cone breaching (feeds the ctgs smooth as silk) ,,,and will accept bbls threaded for Panda unitized thread,,,(any gunsmith who knows his stuff can do it) ,,,call Kelblys (,,Phone 330-683-4674,,ask for Ian,,,he will walk you thru it)there is more to Kelblys than a pretty web page,,,,,,Roger
 
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I have no clue what I am doing as I am totally new to the Long Range Bench Rest game, though have been shooting since the 60s. I ordered a Borden action because Jim quoted me 12-14 weeks unlike the much longer time that I was quoted by others. Jim offered me a lot of friendly advise and help and I ordered the action and it came well within the promised time frame. He also supplied the timed and adjusted BR trigger as well as the bases. Although I have yet to shoot it, the build was completed and it looks great.

Bob
 
bdale said:
Which would you choose thinking about a new build will be a 6BR variant BRDX- Dasher-BRX
For heavy bullets 105 to 108, I like the longer neck on the BRDX:rolleyes:
This would be for Benchrest-600 yard.
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I've NEVER heard any one say anything but praise for Jim Borden and his actions, that's an enviable position to be in. I take it you have seen his actions, absolute work of art ! A big plus is, he is always ready to help his customers, even after the sale. You sure can't say that about a lot of people.

As for building around the 6BR and variants, tclaunch has a new design he developed on the BR case, it's blown out but not as far as a Dasher with a 40* shoulder and longer neck. I believe he is calling it the "TAC40", uses Dasher loads and is starting to get a lot of people in the know interested. You can find out more about the cartridge on the BR/Dasher forum on this web site

Now all you would have to do is figure out what awesome stock to put all this in. Best of luck to you.
 
Hey Trevor:

To go in a tube gun you have MANY options, to be honest I don't think any of the custom actions will shoot any better than a rack grade R700. Will they be smoother, easier to rebarrel and many other ergonomic things- heck yes.

I have Stolle Pandas- If I were building a Tube gun, I would be using the Kelbly Atlas. No doubt in my mind. Borden or Defiance make great actions too- I would use the Kelbly. Just my personal opinion.

Hope to see you this summer on the range.

Morgen
 
mgdietrich said:
Hey Trevor:

To go in a tube gun you have MANY options, to be honest I don't think any of the custom actions will shoot any better than a rack grade R700. Will they be smoother, easier to rebarrel and many other ergonomic things- heck yes.

I have Stolle Pandas- If I were building a Tube gun, I would be using the Kelbly Atlas. No doubt in my mind. Borden or Defiance make great actions too- I would use the Kelbly. Just my personal opinion.

Hope to see you this summer on the range.

Morgen
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Thanks Morgen,

Does the Atlas action accept the Anschutz trigger like their other actions do?

I talked to a bench rest smith yesterday and he told me that there was a difference in the ignition systems found among the various manufacturers. He was looking at the situation from a bench rest perspective and recommended...

1. BAT actions - hands down best ignition system he claimed. Ironically, I don't see many Palma shooters using a BAT.

2. Kelby action - not bad but not as good as the BAT.

3. Bordon - don't wast your time getting a Bordon is what he told me b/c the ignition system is basically just a bunch of Rem parts.

All of this info may be irrelivent to high power shooters like us. I have a couple of Barnard actions and they seem to meet my 1000yd needs just fine. This topic has peaked my interest as I will prob be looking for a third action. To put things into perspective, John Whidden has won LR natl championships with a Win Mod 70 so I am not entirely convinced that the action makes a great deal of difference in the first place.

I would like to hear feedback from the bench rest community on their experiences with an action making a noticible contribution to performance on paper. Do ignition system designs even register in your decision making process when building a rifle?

See you on the range!

-Trevor
 
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Hengehold said:
I would like to hear feedback from the bench rest community on their experiences with an action making a noticible contribution to performance on paper.
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Google "benchrest equipment list" and browse through the equipment lists. It's easy enough to see what's popular among shooters at the highest level of rifle precision.

Do ignition system designs even register in your decision making process when building a rifle?
-Trevor
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Yes. The Borden is the only one that comes with the trigger timed. I've never had a problem with the ignition system on Kelbly's or Borden's actions. For awhile there was a "fix" for light strikes on some BATs that kept benchrest smiths busy(er) -- I don't know if Bruce has changed his actions in response. There's a tradeoff between ignition consistency (firing pin fall, spring pressure, striker mass) and ease of bolt operation. Correct timing will make the best of the situation.
 
Hengehold said:
Thanks Morgen,


I would like to hear feedback from the bench rest community on their experiences with an action making a noticible contribution to performance on paper. Do ignition system designs even register in your decision making process when building a rifle?



-Trevor
Click to expand...
Benchrest match aggregate groups are measured to the tenths (0.0001")....Ignition has only recently come into the forefront as one of the key ingredients to winning.
Bat- responsible for keeping some BR smiths busy diagnosing and correcting ignition system
Kelbly-winningest action in the history of the Super Shoot-uses same mainspring as Rem. 700
Borden-latest Rimrock has redesigned FP ass'y-improved from older TPE action. IMHO Jim is one of a very few individuals that can properly time an action to the trigger which minimizes bag upset = quicker target acquisition.
Remington-has won more SR BR matches than any other action- in part to a superior ignition system as compared to other factory actions.
 
DITTO on the new smith recommendation. Some of them simply want you to buy what they like to work on. If they don't seem happy to help you get what you want, time to move along.

Got a call from my smith yesterday that my new Borden Rimrock is ready to pick up Friday (I'll post pics the weekend on a new thread). He's always willing to discuss the build and my options with information to help me end up with what I want for the type of shooting I plan to do. If your smith seems a little too "guiding", there are plenty more out there.
 
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Bat has a new fire control. I put one in my light gun and saw a difference. Another guy I showed it to put one in his and saw improvement also. The bolt was easier to open with the roller and the groups got better. Matt
 
Trevor:

I don't think any of the remington clone actions will fit in a Elisio stock with an Ahg trigger on it. The Kelbly Atlas is not milled for an AHG like the Panda/Grizzly can be. You would have to use a Briley trigger hanger to add an Ahg. If you need a Two stage for a remington type today, you don't have to use Ahg. You could get an Extreme from Tom Myers, the New Tubb T7T trigger or Bix-N-Andy also has a 2 stage.

I would just get another Barny and keep it all the same. I only went away from Barnards because I wanted an ejector. If I was changing actions, I went to Panda because I could get the integrated rear sight mount and Ahg trigger. They don't shoot any better then by Barnys did, but I prefer the ergonomics (can keep the gun in the shoulder, since I don't have to reach in the chamber to eject)

Not many Palma guys use Bat, but I think that is most because Pandas were available first and we all like to follow the leader. A Bat 3 lug which they will mill for Ahg trigger would be a great rig- but you are probably going to be waiting almost a year to get it.

All good choices, you really can't go wrong with any of them.

Morgen
 
mgdietrich said:
Trevor:

I don't think any of the remington clone actions will fit in a Elisio stock with an Ahg trigger on it. The Kelbly Atlas is not milled for an AHG like the Panda/Grizzly can be. You would have to use a Briley trigger hanger to add an Ahg. If you need a Two stage for a remington type today, you don't have to use Ahg. You could get an Extreme from Tom Myers, the New Tubb T7T trigger or Bix-N-Andy also has a 2 stage.

I would just get another Barny and keep it all the same. I only went away from Barnards because I wanted an ejector. If I was changing actions, I went to Panda because I could get the integrated rear sight mount and Ahg trigger. They don't shoot any better then by Barnys did, but I prefer the ergonomics (can keep the gun in the shoulder, since I don't have to reach in the chamber to eject)

Not many Palma guys use Bat, but I think that is most because Pandas were available first and we all like to follow the leader. A Bat 3 lug which they will mill for Ahg trigger would be a great rig- but you are probably going to be waiting almost a year to get it.

All good choices, you really can't go wrong with any of them.

Morgen
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Thanks Morgen,
You just answered the PM I sent to you.
 
Sooo,,,,b-dale and trev,,,what action did you use????,,,,,,what bbl.,scope,trigger,stock,bullet,powder(type/brand/amt.),primer,brass,,,,no matter what ,,YOU gotta point it at the right place,,,Roger
 
JimPag said:
I know 2 customers of his that are so fed up with him that they wouldn't deal with him if their life depended on it. It happens, you can't please everyone.
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I know many people including myself that have the highest regard for Jim Borden. He's always been really helpful to me and taken time to help out even if I'm not buying something from him. You can always find a few people that can't be pleased no matter how hard one try's .
 
Bottom line is it doesn't matter what custom action, brand of barrel, brand of custom match bullets u use, as long as it was put together by a gunsmith who knows what he's doing, and as long as u have a good tune on the rifle, bottom line is you need to know how to read the flags and pull the trigger at the right time, plain & simple.
 
Between those two it's a tuff choice. But because of the timing and the service the Borden would get my vote. I have owned, or do own, 7 different brand of custom actions and the Borden BR in 6PPC that I currently shoot is the smoothest of them all. But as most have said there are a lot of good actions out there.
 
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