butchlambert
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Norm,
What do you have to contribute?
What do you have to contribute?
K & M Arbor press with "seating force measurement gauge"
- Thread starter BigKev
- Start date
I disagree,,searcher said:
Neither seating nor pulling of bullets is the same as 'releasing' of bullets.
And effective tension amounts only to springback against a bullet. When your necks springs back on expansion(bullet seating is expansion) 1-1.5thou, this produces your tension, regardless of further interference fit. You get no more than ~1.5thou springback force x area applied.
With this, consistent tension comes down to consistent spring back force, and is adjusted via LENGTH of sizing (not diameter).
This serves to reduce seating force, and plays no role in bullet release. Reducing seating forces is a good move if needed to obtain perfect seating.searcher said:
A test, 10 cases each:
10 sized (no more than seated bullet bearing) to ~7thou under cal and neck IDs squeaky cleaned.
10 sized (no more than seated bullet bearing) ~2thou under cal and carbon film left inside necks.
While seating bullets with your indicated K&M, note the huge difference in seating forces between the two groups.
But while shooting the groups across a good chrono, note NO difference in MVs.
Mikecr – not sure what to make of what you said. I think it is extremely difficult to figure out what exactly happens in terms of bullet release. I am not sold on seating force being a tell all but this idea that bullet release is all about expanding neck spring back force from bullet bearing is equally puzzling to me – please expand a bit more so I can understand.
One thing I am convinced of is nothing happens instantaneously when a gun fires since pressure takes time to build up and part of what affects the shape and degree of the pressure curve is how the bullet respond to this build up i.e. how and when it moves. This is why I think neck tension matters.
Not being difficult but the experiment you suggested is not a good one. The reason is it violates a basic principle of experimental design which is if you are trying to answer a question with an experiment, you must only change one single variable per condition or you will not be able to interpret your results. Changing both neck tension by how far the case is under caliber and also the condition of the neck is problematic.
LongRanger – some interesting comments. I think the reason you should always follow polishing the neck with steel wool by a nylon brush is to address the steel wool embedding on the neck. Have you tried this and what are the results?
You can reseat a bullet in a case but keep in mind that in order to do this, you will have to pull the bullet and pulling it with something like a Hornady bullet puller will distort the shape of the bullet. You can test this by measuring bullet bearing surface length and you will find that it changes that parameter.
One thing I am convinced of is nothing happens instantaneously when a gun fires since pressure takes time to build up and part of what affects the shape and degree of the pressure curve is how the bullet respond to this build up i.e. how and when it moves. This is why I think neck tension matters.
Not being difficult but the experiment you suggested is not a good one. The reason is it violates a basic principle of experimental design which is if you are trying to answer a question with an experiment, you must only change one single variable per condition or you will not be able to interpret your results. Changing both neck tension by how far the case is under caliber and also the condition of the neck is problematic.
LongRanger – some interesting comments. I think the reason you should always follow polishing the neck with steel wool by a nylon brush is to address the steel wool embedding on the neck. Have you tried this and what are the results?
You can reseat a bullet in a case but keep in mind that in order to do this, you will have to pull the bullet and pulling it with something like a Hornady bullet puller will distort the shape of the bullet. You can test this by measuring bullet bearing surface length and you will find that it changes that parameter.
My test addressed 2 things in disagreement at the same time.
I should have mentioned qualifiers though: That neck groups are sized the same length, bullets seated the same depth(anything not jammed), and bullets are not friction coated.
I could add a third:
10 sized .200 longer than seated bullet bearing ~4thou under cal and carbon film left inside necks.
This would show that tension is affected by length of sizing, AND independent of friction.
A fourth test would deal with annealing, which provides results just opposite of what many believe. But I'll stop where I'm at.
I should have mentioned qualifiers though: That neck groups are sized the same length, bullets seated the same depth(anything not jammed), and bullets are not friction coated.
I could add a third:
10 sized .200 longer than seated bullet bearing ~4thou under cal and carbon film left inside necks.
This would show that tension is affected by length of sizing, AND independent of friction.
A fourth test would deal with annealing, which provides results just opposite of what many believe. But I'll stop where I'm at.
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
That's great Jim. I did not state that it doesn't work, but think it won't show up in short range BR as an improvement. I did not mention that I did have one back when I was shooting a lot. I could not see any difference on the paper and gave up on it when somebody else wanted it. It certainly didn't hurt my groups. I usually took 20 pieces of new brass to a match that were segregated by 4# increments. My loading methods may have been the problem, the pressures changed during the match. Didn't seem to effect the groups.
A lot of oldtimers are like me. Looking for the magic grail. I've been through 6 different rests, 5 different tops, many many different front and rear bags, many different brands and lots of powder, many different bullets, different stocks, receivers, and barrels. I've tried different primers, different fireforming methods, different type and size neck bushings, and several types of dies and custom dies. Oh, I forgot that I have gone through 6 different wind flags and 2 sets of Beggs wind probes. I've been to Tony Boyer's classes twice and 2 times with Stuart and Annie Elliott of BRT in Australia.
You know, I probably forgot a bunch, but I shot best when I shot a lot!
A lot of oldtimers are like me. Looking for the magic grail. I've been through 6 different rests, 5 different tops, many many different front and rear bags, many different brands and lots of powder, many different bullets, different stocks, receivers, and barrels. I've tried different primers, different fireforming methods, different type and size neck bushings, and several types of dies and custom dies. Oh, I forgot that I have gone through 6 different wind flags and 2 sets of Beggs wind probes. I've been to Tony Boyer's classes twice and 2 times with Stuart and Annie Elliott of BRT in Australia.
You know, I probably forgot a bunch, but I shot best when I shot a lot!
Well "Searcher," I don't have a problem with my brass. Strange you should ask.
Butch Lambert, The only thing I have to contribute is what I stated in my first response to this thread on page 1! I was simply stating the results I got on the first trial of my K&M seating force gauge. Both the force indications on seating as well as the slight improvement in velocity statistics in shooting these rounds at 1000yds.
And, I was looking for some one to come back with their indications when using the seating force gauge.
This last investment is one in a string of ways to eliminate excuses when shooting long range bench rest. I have my cartridge making to the point where the engineer in me feels it isn't really possible to improve in any way to improve my scores over my present skill level. Which, incidentally, is good enough to just keep me below the level of top 10 awards in the last couple Sacramento NBRSA long range nationals.
And your collective contributions?
Butch Lambert, The only thing I have to contribute is what I stated in my first response to this thread on page 1! I was simply stating the results I got on the first trial of my K&M seating force gauge. Both the force indications on seating as well as the slight improvement in velocity statistics in shooting these rounds at 1000yds.
And, I was looking for some one to come back with their indications when using the seating force gauge.
This last investment is one in a string of ways to eliminate excuses when shooting long range bench rest. I have my cartridge making to the point where the engineer in me feels it isn't really possible to improve in any way to improve my scores over my present skill level. Which, incidentally, is good enough to just keep me below the level of top 10 awards in the last couple Sacramento NBRSA long range nationals.
And your collective contributions?
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
tom said:
butchlambert said:
Tom,
You are as per usual spot on, I feel the same and I am sorry I let my temper get the best of me, you know me I can't take,......well it doesn't matter your right and I apologize I am going to remove all of my comments that were negative! Thank you and its reasons just like this that you are my mentor and friend.
Sincerely Wayne A Bezona.
Butch,
Truer words never spoken,...thank you.
Wayne.
With over 60 years of reloading under my belt, I’m positive that it is female brass that causes fliers. Hey! Loads were perfect. Conditions were perfect. I did everything perfect. What else could it be?
Life was a lot less frustrating and more fun when wife and I were shooting lots of trap and skeet.
Bang! Cloud of smoke. Bang! Cloud of smoke. Bang! Bang! Cloud of smoke, cloud of smoke.
Very satisfying.
Hmmm.
Frank B.
Life was a lot less frustrating and more fun when wife and I were shooting lots of trap and skeet.
Bang! Cloud of smoke. Bang! Cloud of smoke. Bang! Bang! Cloud of smoke, cloud of smoke.
Very satisfying.
Hmmm.
Frank B.
searcher
Gold $$ Contributor
I thought I was done. I received a private e-mail by a gentleman, along with excerpts from an article titled "THE HOUSTON WAREHOUSE" or something close to that as I recall. I hadn't seen that article in many years. I think I Ifirst read it possibly in Precision Shooting in the late 80's or early 90's(?). I have begun to dig my past copies out of the attic for a re-read as I thought it was one of the more intriguing articles I have ever read. Anyway - this was surely the source for some of the "theories" and "vooDoo" I have spread as methods I have employed on this K&M thread. Perhaps someone may wish to post it as it goes over the trials and tribulations of some of the best shooters of the time (and present day), what worked for them and what did not- from their own perspectives. I now remember where, specifically, I had read of another top shooter using this 400-grit sandpaper method - the importance of fine tuning the necks beyond the cutter, etc. And this was being done for short range bench rest! That partucular shooter in the article was Virgil Anderson. Naysayers can retain their beliefs that these methods are "theory and VooDoo". I was open minded when I read this article and have always been willing to try new methods - even if I didn't fully understand the physics involved - such as bullet release pressure, etc. If any of you guys have this article - it is worth a re-read. If you know someone who has it - it may be the best article you have ever read - even if you disagree with everything in it. Sometimes we are presented with good ideas. Sometimes it pays to try them out prior to passing judgement. To hear a benchrest shooter say he doesn't do something because "the other guys don't do it" is spoken by a true follower.
Normmatzen: As I guess I may be one being referred to as a "pisser" by a few, my intent was not to piss you off. I have no ill will towards your brass and did not mean to imply there could have been a problem with it - just that the K&M tool wasn't going to fix it if there was fixing to be done. A few of us got a little hotter than we would have liked and I apparently pushed your button as well. You appear to be directing the question "and what are your collective contributions?" towards me. And this is right after you cite "you are just under the top ten shooters at the Sacramento match". Is that your contribution to us? If so, I want more out of you. Why not? Now I'll answer your question.
Long ago, I became an N.R.A. Benefactor member and have since funded pro-gun organizations with significant donations to protect our gun rights - enough to keep a couple of attorneys on staff for our collective benefit. I have purchased lifetime hunting licences to help protect hunting in the future - and gun ownership as a result, As a past U.S.M.C. Scout/Sniper instructor for Weapons Company 2nd Battalion 23rd Marine Regiment, I donate my time at a local range to assist first time shooters as well as advanced. I provide resources for improvements at a local range (even though it is for-profit) to help ensure they succeed and are able to provide a place for local shooters. I have financially backed a new sporting goods store until they could eventually secure a standard commercial loan. That store became the only local seller of a wide variety of ammunition. I have offered to assist new/old shooters who wish to enter reloading for probably 20 years and THAT is probably the most satisfaction I get other than shooting - and that is watching a new reloader shoot his first handloaded ammunition. Lastly, because I shoot multiple disciplines requiring numerous arms, dies, optic, and so on, I contribute to our shooting economy as we all do - and in no small part. I was not always in a position to do these things financially. I am most grateful to be able to spend my time and resources in this manner. I do it for the selfish part of me, those that would if they had the time or resources and all the others who could care less. I only responded to this because I am not a self-proclaimed gun expert or arm-chair expert. I live and love what I do. It's hard to score that.
Normmatzen: As I guess I may be one being referred to as a "pisser" by a few, my intent was not to piss you off. I have no ill will towards your brass and did not mean to imply there could have been a problem with it - just that the K&M tool wasn't going to fix it if there was fixing to be done. A few of us got a little hotter than we would have liked and I apparently pushed your button as well. You appear to be directing the question "and what are your collective contributions?" towards me. And this is right after you cite "you are just under the top ten shooters at the Sacramento match". Is that your contribution to us? If so, I want more out of you. Why not? Now I'll answer your question.
Long ago, I became an N.R.A. Benefactor member and have since funded pro-gun organizations with significant donations to protect our gun rights - enough to keep a couple of attorneys on staff for our collective benefit. I have purchased lifetime hunting licences to help protect hunting in the future - and gun ownership as a result, As a past U.S.M.C. Scout/Sniper instructor for Weapons Company 2nd Battalion 23rd Marine Regiment, I donate my time at a local range to assist first time shooters as well as advanced. I provide resources for improvements at a local range (even though it is for-profit) to help ensure they succeed and are able to provide a place for local shooters. I have financially backed a new sporting goods store until they could eventually secure a standard commercial loan. That store became the only local seller of a wide variety of ammunition. I have offered to assist new/old shooters who wish to enter reloading for probably 20 years and THAT is probably the most satisfaction I get other than shooting - and that is watching a new reloader shoot his first handloaded ammunition. Lastly, because I shoot multiple disciplines requiring numerous arms, dies, optic, and so on, I contribute to our shooting economy as we all do - and in no small part. I was not always in a position to do these things financially. I am most grateful to be able to spend my time and resources in this manner. I do it for the selfish part of me, those that would if they had the time or resources and all the others who could care less. I only responded to this because I am not a self-proclaimed gun expert or arm-chair expert. I live and love what I do. It's hard to score that.
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
I don't believe you will find a Virgil Anderson associated with the Houston Warehouse. You may want to refine your research.
SEARCHER,
Boy, are you a touchy guy! No, I wasn't telling of my "prowess" at long range BR as a contribution, just indicating that I am absolutely not an expert at this stuff!
And by asking for your and the other gentleman's contribution, I was asking with reference to the original subject of this thread.
To that end, I would still like to hear what you and Butch have to add to experiences with the arbor press with force seating gauge. I was essentially agreeing with you that the seating force gauge was probably not adding much to the loading equation. And, I had better be careful with what equipment I add as I am eliminating all my important excuses!
Well, I'll still be using a Savage PTA with the accutrigger to maintain my main excuse!
I was/am curious what experience others have had with typical force numbers while using the force gauge while seating bullets. In my case, I am loading 6BRX with 105 Hybrids and am looking into seating force consistency. The first 30 I seated reacted much differently than I expected. I do ultrasonically clean my cases, which has brought about some interesting problems such as cold welding collett die mandrels to the inside of the case neck. But, what I found with those first 30 cases, incidentally full length sized with a bushing die, 10 of them began moving with ~15 pounds and the other 20 with 20-25 pounds. All of them though reached a maximum force of 125 pounds at final seating depth (just before locking up the die). I thought the force while the bullet was moving into the neck would be much lower? I was careful to apply pressure slowly so the force would be accurately indicated.
What do you and Butch think?
Boy, are you a touchy guy! No, I wasn't telling of my "prowess" at long range BR as a contribution, just indicating that I am absolutely not an expert at this stuff!
And by asking for your and the other gentleman's contribution, I was asking with reference to the original subject of this thread.
To that end, I would still like to hear what you and Butch have to add to experiences with the arbor press with force seating gauge. I was essentially agreeing with you that the seating force gauge was probably not adding much to the loading equation. And, I had better be careful with what equipment I add as I am eliminating all my important excuses!
Well, I'll still be using a Savage PTA with the accutrigger to maintain my main excuse!
I was/am curious what experience others have had with typical force numbers while using the force gauge while seating bullets. In my case, I am loading 6BRX with 105 Hybrids and am looking into seating force consistency. The first 30 I seated reacted much differently than I expected. I do ultrasonically clean my cases, which has brought about some interesting problems such as cold welding collett die mandrels to the inside of the case neck. But, what I found with those first 30 cases, incidentally full length sized with a bushing die, 10 of them began moving with ~15 pounds and the other 20 with 20-25 pounds. All of them though reached a maximum force of 125 pounds at final seating depth (just before locking up the die). I thought the force while the bullet was moving into the neck would be much lower? I was careful to apply pressure slowly so the force would be accurately indicated.
What do you and Butch think?
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Norm, did you take the time to read post#48?
searcher
Gold $$ Contributor
normmatzen: If you did mean to type 125 pounds as the force you are applying to the die, I believe you may be trying to read it as I did when I was getting accustomed to how mine works. Look at the pressure differences you are noting - those when the bullet finally starts to move. Once you seat the bullet, you can keep applying pressure but all you are doing is measuring how much force you are placing on the die until you run out of measuring capacity- probably 125 pounds on your setup. What I measure and use as my basis for comparing others is that initial "break-free" poundage where the bullet starts to move. That doesn't necessarily equate to measured pressure -as we have covered - yet it does in approximation - which is better than nothing. Pretty amazing the differences in break-free movement. There are far more accurate (and expensive) options out there for measuring this seating force. The one I like is the electronic pad that goes under any benchrest press designed for hand dies and gives you a digital readout on your computer monitor. VERY accurate. It has been around two years since I last researched them - at that time the price was around $2,500. I will be interested at a lower price. I'll use the K&M for brass tune till then. I am very familiar with your clean neck ailments. Try dipping your necks in the moly-charged ceramic beads (forget maker). You probably have them. The uniformity in seating pressure imrovement is quite dramatic and no cold-welding issues.
butchlambert: I'll expand my search. Now I'm really curious. Thanks
butchlambert: I'll expand my search. Now I'm really curious. Thanks
Searcher,
Thanks for the very good inputs!
Yes, I now use hBN in a shot glass of very small ball bearings. No more cold welding!
Also, I tried diligently to watch the dial indicater very close and still got 125 lbs as the final, before lock-up, reading.
I haven't checked the data on the 10 cases with 15 pounds release yet, but the 20 with 20-25 improved the sd by 10 % and the es by 14%. So, I guess it is worth the effort.
Thanks for the very good inputs!
Yes, I now use hBN in a shot glass of very small ball bearings. No more cold welding!
Also, I tried diligently to watch the dial indicater very close and still got 125 lbs as the final, before lock-up, reading.
I haven't checked the data on the 10 cases with 15 pounds release yet, but the 20 with 20-25 improved the sd by 10 % and the es by 14%. So, I guess it is worth the effort.
searcher
Gold $$ Contributor
I was mistaken on the name of ther shooter who I had long ago read about. It was not Virgil Anderson - it was Virgil King. The name of the article was "Secrets of The Houston Warehouse" by Dave Scott. I quit looking through my 20-year-old mags and did a quick internet search. Just type in "Houston Warehouse" and you will find the article. Scan down about halfway and you can read of Mr. King's neck tuning which (egad) involved 400-grit sandpaper.. His approach to hand-seating in lack of something like the K&M is also interesting as is his take on removing the rings left by the turner. And this was for short-range work. Great read.
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