K & M Arbor press with "seating force measurement gauge"

[butchlambert]

I understand being anal about your loading, But you might be better off shooting than this crap.

 

[jlow]

Searcher – sounds like a reasonable plan, thanks for the details.

 

[searcher]

butchlambert: Don't know about you - but I do get in some shooting. I shoot four full days a week (6PPC, 30BR, 6BR, 6 Dasher, then onto A/R' and M1a's for across the course) and reload the other two before family time the following two days. Have done this for 9 years since retiring early from a successful career just so I could do this. The prior 40 years I could only spend all weekend doing this - and there was the Marine Corps - but not enough shooting there either. Shortage of enemies? So yes, I get in my shooting and now I have a lull where I cannot access my reloading gear due to a move - and I found myself yacking on this forum. I've noticed a distinct pattern with this forum - whereas the likes of Bozo are quick to put folks down for any reason that suits them. If you were really serious about your shooting, you might not be so quick to dismiss others' ideas. If you do - that's your perrogative - but you don't need to flash the low I.Q. card as Bozo does and alienate others in the process. Don't mean to bash you and Bozo - but I'll gladly do so if the need arises. You can't have all the fun. And you sure as hell don't know everything. (Bozo does -just ask him) There are a lot of really talented folks (and those on the upcome) who view this forum that are WAY beyond your league - if not in shooting - in class. They don't deserve your whining and sniveling remarks. If I get ousted from this Forum for my simple honesty - somebody had to take the bullet for the team. Perhaps we can all come to respect one another. Maybe not.

 

[jlow]

Yip, can’t say I ever understood the need to ridicule?

 

[butchlambert]

searcher, a little reading comprehension will show that I made a statement just as you did. I'm sorry if you feel that I put you down. I still believe you need to spend your time shooting. My whole family either were in the military or still in. It has not made them better or worse shooters.
Remember I just stated an opinion that I believe in as you did.

 

[stubbicatt]

Keeripes. I read this forum and more often than not, my head spins. There is so much to learn. One of you guys should write a book on advanced handloading techniques.

You guys can ignore this as it probably doesn't merit a response. I sorta thought that jamming the bullets on cases with .001' tension took care of the seating force issue?

>>Back to lurking.

 

[butchlambert]

searcher,
What about this? I'm speaking of 6ppc now, but you can do a similar thing with other calibers. I fireform my new 220 russian brass in an old barrel(6mmppc) without doing any brass work first. I personally use a case full of Bullseye and a wax plug. After fireforming, I may have to repeat this as the shoulders will not always be sharp. Alright, I believe expanding with a expander causes neck problems and that is why I do it this way. Yes, I do the primer pocket uniforming and flash hole size and deburr. I trim all my brass to the same length as the shortest piece in the lot. I chamfer both inside and outside of the necks. It takes so little expanding at this stage that you are not upsetting your brass. I purchased a set of reamers in .0002 differences to ream inside the necks for a smooth finish before neck turning. I neck turn in the lathe with a Pumpkin neck turning tool.
I am more fortunate than most as I have solid carbide neck bushings for 22,6mm,6.5mm, and 30cal. I have 6 sizes for ea. caliber in .0005 increments.
Is this necessary, probably not. I guess the most important thing to remember, if you kiss a skunk every time you win a match, you better keep kissing the skunk.

 

[jlow]

Wayne – The way I look at it is whether a single winning benchrest shooter use a particular technique does not disqualify a technique as a good or bad one. The reason being that if that was the case, then no new better technique would ever show up unless it was first found or sanctioned by them? – LOL!

To move forward and advance and do better, one must always keep an open mind. Not yanking searcher’s chain at all, again just keeping an open mind but as you can see I also voice my own concerns but without discounting the technique. I have unfortunately learned firsthand as an “experienced scientist” that experience is not an absolute requirement for coming up with a good idea as I have had young interns that works for me coming up with unique and better ideas – it does humble and rightfully so….

 

[butchlambert]

Wayne – The way I look at it is whether a single winning benchrest shooter use a particular technique does not disqualify a technique as a good or bad one. The reason being that if that was the case, then no new better technique would ever show up unless it was first found or sanctioned by them? – LOL!

To move forward and advance and do better, one must always keep an open mind. Not yanking searcher’s chain at all, again just keeping an open mind but as you can see I also voice my own concerns but without discounting the technique. I have unfortunately learned firsthand as an “experienced scientist” that experience is not an absolute requirement for coming up with a good idea as I have had young interns that works for me coming up with unique and better ideas – it does humble and rightfully so….

I pretty much agree with you. One question though"How do you adjust for your necks pressure during a match?" Very few people preload before a short range BR match. Kinda hard to take your drill press and all to a match or do you think after you did your method at home the neck tension won't change.

 

[butchlambert]

Tom,
I believe Wayne made some good points. Do we always need to be politically correct? It kinda sticks in my craw sometime. Most serious shooters look at this and go on. What about the rookies that are all new to this? I personally believe that they need to spend more time shooting and watching windflags.
I really would like for somebody to check which top ten shooters in any type competition shooting use a pressure gauge. Does it have any value, K&M thinks so.

 

[jlow]

Well as mentioned earlier, I am far from being a convert but just following up. One question I have for searcher is what type of bullets you are using? The reason being is for something like a 175gr SMK, the variance in bullet diameter is on the order of around 0.0001” which is easily measurable using a mic and so if the bullet diameter variance is that big, will smaller variance in neck thickness that you are fixing with the sandpaper make a difference? I understand that bullet diameter variation will affect neck tension in a slightly different way than variation in neck thickness, but just wondering.

Good question butchlambert, I too would like to know the answer.

 

[searcher]

Bozo: Glad you admitted you don't know anything about short bench rest. Your long-range knowledge is still quite suspect in my mind. I guess that puts us on even ground there. To shoot at 1,000 and truly be good are two things entirely. I would truly enjoy shooting against you - perhaps some day... I'm retired and have the means to come to you. Not sure what your babbling over using rasps and files are all about - but you can use those tools if you wish. I won't fault you any more than I already have..


Butchlambert: I like all your techniques and use most myself, sans the inside neck reaming- and have with my 6PPCs for almost 30 years. Interesting that someone came up with all of these good ideas and you use them as I do. Learning from others isn't so bad. I do believe finding a better way to uniform neck thickness is out there. If you were really concerned with seating pressure, you might be on-board with the subject - if not my method. It is a method that works but may be more work than you feel is worth it. That's O.K. by me. If there is anybody out there that thinks getting necks more uniform is better than not - I'm with them. If they can show me a better way to do it - I'm with them. I have tried many. If you reread my posts from the beginning - the idea is just to bring the neck seating pressure into closer proximity to one another. Taking a slight amount of material off with sandpaper from the thicker necks - when it is a smaller amount than can be reasonably dialed in on the neck turner - works. It is only done one time at the time of initial brass prep time. It has nothing to do with whether the cases are loaded prior to or the day of the match. I realize the neck tension relaxes as loaded ammo sits around for a while. One of the several reasons we don't like that is because S-O-M-E- of the bullets can easily be pushed in when chambering - ruining our depth seating. Theoretically, if all the necks were EXACTLY the same, as were the bullet diameters, same amount of moly, same level of annealing, eg., when this did happen - it would all happen exactly the same. And you know that's not going to happen. Why? Lack of uniformity. All were trying to do here is make a component more uniform. You mention the neck tension changing after my procedure is accomplished.
Again, I think you are missing the big picture here. The tension on your necks is going to change no matter what you do to them. Bringing them closer to one another in thickness, for example, is not going to make it worse unless they are in need of an annealing job. Simple task.

A lot of people have devised their own seating pressure devices and a lot of K&M presses with the dial have been sold. These people don't just buy these things so they can determine the uniformity (or lack thereof) of their seating pressure. They want to do something about improving it as well. Bozo believes that's' what neck cutters are for. Sure - but they only get you so close. If that's "good nuff' for him, he will save a lot of time not weighing bullets, brass, measuring base-to-ogive, weighing powder loads to 1/20th grain weight individually, checking each round for concentricity, truing the meplats, pointing the bullets and/or a host of other things most SERIOUS 1,000 yard competitors do.

I'm betting BIG TIME that neither you or Bozo have the K&M pressure press or another brand or type of measuring press. You probably know someone who does. I think you would get a real kick using it to load your best brass that you think is really uniform. Real eye-opener and you will no longer entirely trust your micrometers alone.

 

[searcher]

jlow: Your point about the Sierra diameter variation couldn't be better timed. You can't lie about simple math and yes, I do believe as I think you do - that the diameter irregularities in your bullets WILL counter-effect part of what we just made "closer to perfect" with the necks. Now it becomes a bullet issue - not a neck issue. Deriving accurancy is all about uniformity in EACH component. I am not familiar with that bullet (usual loads - my 6BR and Dasher both shoot the 105 Lapua Scenar L bullets, 112 Knights in 30BR, 68 Barts or 62 Bergers in PPC). I spend a lot of time sorting bullets but spend the least amount with the Scenar L bullets. They come pretty good out of the box - just do a quick over on the scale for three weight classes instead of 6 or 8 that I might end up with on some brands of bullets - Sierra included - when I shoot them in 6mm. Like weighing powder in much SMALLER measurements when shooting out at 600 and 1,000, uniforming the meplats, etc. Whatever it is we are doing it is always to make everything the same. As some f the guys alreadey have expressed - everybody has their limits on what thwey are willing to do or what they think doesn't matter. I say we can't go wrong making it all the same - but we sure can go to a lot of work...

 

[jlow]

Searcher,

SMKs are good bullets but they are not Lapua which is one reason I ask my question. I know people sort bullets by weight and bearing surface lengths, but have you mic the Lapua to see what variation they have? They are likely to be better but I was just wondering just how much better? Part of this relates to our discussion, but part of it is just for my own curiosity.

One reason the consistency of the bullet diameter is of paramount importance for what you do is because when you sand your necks and measure seating force, the other “gauge” you are using is in fact the bullet. What I understand from reading what you are doing is to normalize neck thickness by seating a bullet and sanding the neck if there is too much tension and then once you thin the neck down, you seat again and repeating the process until the seating force is a specific “normalized” value that you have chosen. That way all the cases have the same “normalized” seating value and presumably the same wall thickness.

One potential problem is the assumption here is the bullet gauge you use for the different pieces of brass is the exactly the same and so the only thing that is changed is the neck thickness to get the “normalized” seating value. However, if the bullet diameter used for different pieces of brass are in fact different, you can see how that can confound the exercise. The problem here is since you are finding very slight immeasurable difference in neck thickness can account for differences in neck tension, it is also possible that immeasurable differences in bullet diameter can confound the measurements.

Although you are right in saying that neck thickness and bullet diameter variation are different issues, you can see that if you use the bullet as a “gauge” in the way I think you are doing, the two can get tie together and confound the issue.

 

[mikecr]

While I know consistent tension (bullet grip) makes a difference, I don't see 'bullet seating force' as directly correlating to tension.
Seating force comes down to friction over a given area. Actual bullet release is a matter of expanding neck spring back force from bullet bearing (via pressure).
There is currently no tool that I'm aware of to directly measures this.

So IMO, The K&M gage is pretty limited in value.
But it's a good area to focus discussion on. LR shooters could benefit.

 

[LongRanger]

I, personally, would never sand any part of my brass. I have years of experience with how easily abrasives ranging from 100 grit to 10,000 grit embed into different materials like copper....even cast iron. (I have "charged " jewelry laps made from a variety of materials ranging from plexiglass to cast iron with abrasives to grind and polish gemstones).

And, Someone recently, I believe on this website, posted that they had experienced 4x steel wool embedding inside their necks. I looked at mine under high magnification and YIKES...he was right!

As I mentioned elsewhere, I've had the K&M seating force gauge for a few years and have seated many thousands of rounds using it. If I felt a bullet seated too tight, it was a simple matter to pull it and seat it again, and then again if necessary...the bullet acts like an expanding mandrel PLUS I suspect it gains a certain amount of "polishing" during the process. If it seats too loose, its a simple matter to tighten down on the screw on the neck bushing a little bit. To make the process less tiresome, I sort mine by pressure as I go along and make any adjustment after processing the whole batch.

I am a competitive 1000y High Master F class shooter looking for all the edge I can get. But, in the end, I've not found anything I do to equalize seating pressure makes any difference on the target.....too much other stuff going on down range.... But I do it anyway....sort of a feel good thing.

Frank B.

 

[searcher]

jlow and mikecr: I agree with both of you.

Regarding Jlows note that differing bullet thicknesses may partiallly counteract work on the necks - again I agree. I also believe that the closer we can make all of the components to one another, the more uniform our total result will be - regardless of interacting variations. A good example involving other components might be why we should uniform a flash hole when we can't control the variation of the primer flashes themselves. Best to look at one thing at a time in my opinion.

Mikecr: You are absolutely correct in that pressure to pull a bullet may be far different than the amount of pressure of the bullet going in. I also believe that (just as a graphic example) if I were to have .005" of neck tension on my sizing bushing, my bullet is going to be harder to release than if it were a bushing applying .001" tension. I doubt there are any disagreements there. Why is there so much resistance from some folks in believing that these same principles still apply when the differences are smaller? That said, I started looking into how to get more unformity in EVERYTHING I do just for long range benchrest and F-Flass. As I had mentioned in one of my earlier posts on this subject - I do a very abreviated version of this for short range benchrest as even I don't see the degree of benefits I do at the longer ranges- yet I do get slightly smaller groups on average. I'm not talking about 1/10th" here - but rather a small fraction of that. Those small fractions add up for me. Long range - another story!!! To further uniform pressure for bullet RELEASE, I have, over the years, become a die-hard fan of using moly to minimize friction for more uniform release - which I know could be a whole new debate. I go against the recommendations of several barrel makers, my own gunsmith (who held/holds world records), yet, in my guns with the loads I use - it works and works well. If I didn't use moly, I'd experiment with dry neck lubes until I found the right method to apply the right one. I have convinced myself after around 20,000 +PPC rounds that a lubed neck (or moly bullet) allows smaller groups ON AVERAGE. I'm not saying this is therefor the way it is for everyone - just for me. Because this is found to be true when just the neck is lubed, I deduce it to be a result of more to do with lubrication in the neck - rather than the effects of the moly after the bullet leaves the neck. As we know, it is almost impossible to get the necks EXACTLY the same in thickness, softness of the metal, inside neck texture, length, micro-nub caused by the inside chamfer tool, etc. There is always a small imperfection that creates additional friction (or less) and the resulting pressure change. The lubrication decreases the effects of these influences - however small.

Then again - you could use the K&M tool just to pick out your top 10 "offending" cases and call it a day.

 

[normmatzen]

Interesting! I came to this thread to find out more on how to use my new seating force gauge on my K&M arbor press.
Instead I see some folks participating in a totally useless pissing contest! And, about something about as far from arbor press techniques as possible.

Get a life!

 

[searcher]

Longranger: The grit lodging in the brass was a bit of a concern when I first using sandpaper (actually - it was an emery board at first) I know Bozo, emery boards are for nails...
Because I use it only on the outside of my neck and the brass is cleaned afterwards, the question was what it might do to my chamber neck. I have a borescope and monitor my barrels regularly due to the above-average level of shooting they get and because they get replaced far more often than I would guess most do. I have never seen any sign of damage, pitting or enlargement whatsoever to the neck. Because I am after accuracy only and change the barrel when it no longer delivers what I want, I have not had one on long enough to see what the effect might be after, say, 5,000 or more rounds. The closest I have is a 30BR barrel with around 4,500. It might have a long term affect if someone was either not diligent in cleaning their necks off and fired a significant number of rounds through the barrel. I could be wrong. I would never use a forced abrasive inside my cases or necks for fear of transference into the bore. I have been told by my gunsmith that using moly abrades my bores - yet I am satisfied with the life I obtain from them on those in which I do use moly (mostly long range barrels)- whether the life shortened or not.
I think it is good you brought that point up and especially for those contemplating sanding elsewhere....

 

[searcher]

Normatzen: Your "press technique" isn't going to fix your brass. But you are right. I'M DONE