Just how bad is my shoulder bump consistency ?

[G Liles]

Red color is too hot. The cases are ruined.

I anneal with the Annie induction annealer and I let all my cases get to a dark red color and they size and shoot fine.

 

[K22]

After viewing the Primal Rights Video my comments are:

All of his comments are personal opinion and not backed by real facts. He is just repeating the bad info that has been around for a long time. Looks like he gets uneven heating from the way the torches are aligned. I use one torch and center the flame on the neck. I push the inner cooler blue flame well into the neck so it wraps around the neck. I center the flame on the middle of the neck. I heat til I see the beginning of orange/red or whatever you call the color. Red for about 1 sec. It takes about 9 seconds with my method to get red. I don’t have the hottest part off the flame on the neck. The inner flame is cooler but larger and more uniform in temp. You cannot anneal at 750F. You need to get up around 1050-1100F to flash anneal. It’s normal for neck edge first abt 10 thou to get orange before the bulk of the neck. I have done annealing studies at work and performed hardness testing. Also collected and posted actual very detailed annealing studies published by the University of Illinois Metallurgy Dept.

Comments I disagree with in the video:

• Flame color change means cooking material out. Remove before color change.
• If you see the flame change color it’s a little too hot.
• Remove from flame before flame color change and you get proper anneal.
• Red color is too hot. The cases are ruined.

I stop watching his video's when he started talking about powder kernels jumping off the pan and spread sheet around his charging area to prove it. Then he built some kind of box contraption to prevent them from jumping off the pan.

I think the gentleman is sincere and honest but in another universe from me regarding reloading.

 

[Fire Dog]

AMP annealer for real consistency, but just a comment about the case lubrication.

Today, I found I was short one case to make 50 that I had prepped before and had been setting back the shoulder of some cases used in a longer chamber than my current one. I had been using a body die to bump the shoulder back nearly to desired length and then finishing them with a Full Length die for the last .0015-0020”. This was a process to get the shoulder set back about .009”.
I had been using Imperial Case Wax but grabbed a can of Ballistic Case Wax that is made in South Africa and has a bit higher heat resistance that ICW that gets a bit too soft and runny in the summer.
The first case I tried with my previous 2 step system was now .0030” shorter than my target length… WTF??
Tried another case just using my “finishing” full length die and it was perfect, exactly the length I was trying for and had not been able to get consistent results with the Imperial as the cases often just would not have the shoulder set back enough and needed the body die to first do the “hard yards”.
Just the difference between the case lubricants seems to have been a factor in processing my cases and that may also have been the case for Wolfdog91 with his use of different lubricants, that may be what is giving the mixed results when shoulder bumping his cases.

 

[Wolfdog91]

So went and prepped another 55 cases last night and this is what I got this morning after finding up prep

 

[RabbitSlayer]

Those results are not so good. I got better than that before I even started annealing. What made the difference for me was learning to have consistent pressure at the bottom of the stroke by basically letting the press cam over on its own. This same thing helped bullet seating too.

 

[WSnyder]

this is what I got this morning

Down to .003” with the majority only .002” apart. Doing good, keep working it

 

[358WCF]

Being only 1x fired, has all of the brass gotten to the dimension where they need bumped/can be bumped? Maybe the shorter ones haven't grown to full chamber size yet? Just a thought.

 

[ELR LVR]

Something strange is going on
One question, at the top of your press stroke, are you holding it there for a moment to allow brass to flow?
or in a rush and hitting the top quickly, then instantly retracting back down.
Try giving it a 3 second hold at the top of the stroke
other than that...maybe you're not actually bumping the shoulder, except only on those that have grown

 

[Webster]

Something strange is going on
One question, at the top of your press stroke, are you holding it there for a moment to allow brass to flow?
or in a rush and hitting the top quickly, then instantly retracting back down.
Try giving it a 3 second hold at the top of the stroke
other than that...maybe you're not actually bumping the shoulder, except only on those that have grown

The bump variation he is seeing is really pretty small. Why worry about it if it doesn't matter at the target. I think he said the rifle shoots 1" groups. If he wants to improve accuracy he needs to look at things besides a tiny variation in shoulder bump. I would try different bullets. See if some one will give you or sell a few to try. The bump variation he is seeing may be due to not getting hot enough to anneal. He is probably just stress relieving with no hardness change.

I cam over and don't hold. I get 1.5" thou variation in bump. 6BR Lapua cases. Both my GH hunting rifles shoot under .400" with good bullets with just about any load. A good barrel (Kreiger) makes a huge difference.

If your 1" groups are round it's an indication of good bench skills. I have probably shot a 1000 groups with my rifles and I can clearly see the gun likes certain bullets. I cannot shoot a similar size group every time with the same load. A little better than average bench skills, factory rifle, glass bedded, Jewel trigger, 6BR Kreiger 14TW barrel. I don't use wind flags. Good enough to scare any ground hog.

 

[Straightshooter1]

So went and prepped another 55 cases last night and this is what I got this morning after finding up prep
View attachment 1647990

In my experience, when sizing 1X fired brass, it's not unusual to have a variance like that as it's likely they're not fully fire formed when just one time around, especially when not annealed. After 2x firing, I find I much more often get more consistency. And like has been mentioned, a good amount of dwell time helps the brass stay in place (like I'll do 4-5 seconds, leaving the case fully into the sizing die while I lube the next case. . .with fingers).

 

[Evlshnngns]

I think the real trick is where are the outliers. You have 51 pieces within .0025, pretty good.

Mark the four short ones and shoot them in a group. Find your four longest and shoot them in a group.

 

[Webster]

I think the real trick is where are the outliers. You have 51 pieces within .0025, pretty good.

Mark the four short ones and shoot them in a group. Find your four longest and shoot them in a group.

There are probably 15 things that affect group size. I would put bump variation at the bottom of the list. Maybe the rifle is only good enough for 1". I would still say try different bullets. Trying different powders may help. I doubt seating depth and neck tension would make a noticeable difference.

For some reason I always measured groups max vertical and horizontal size and recorded in Excel. Never measured actual group size. It was obvious that the groups were usually .1" wider than tall. I assume this is the wind. I never hold off a 1/2 or 1 bullet diameter for wind. I always aim at the center of the bull and just wait until I think the wind dies down or is in the same direction.

 

[KMW 1954]

I have not seen where this has been asked or stated but what is the measurement on that brass before you size it?

 

[JSH]

Not meaning to come off as coarse, all of the tricks and tips in the best interest of things won’t make a mediocre rig any better. This is first hand from me spending a huge amount of time, effort and frustration only to end up with not much better for time spent than what I had before.
After a number of years fooling with such, I acquired a quality rig. That in itself removed a LOT of problems I was trying to over come with previous platforms. That rifle and action is some of the best money I ever spent.

However, I did learn a HUGE amount trying to “polish” several pieces of coal into diamonds.