Just finished Annealing and this happened...

[MikeMcCasland]

Didn't we do this thread a few months back, and the guy was WAAAY over annealing with a flame annealer?

Under typical circumstances annealing won't cause this, but if it's the only thing that changed you may need to pick up some templac.

Found it: http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/serious-over-pressure-from-annealing.3981876/

 

[Webster]

I've been shooting Lapua brass in my 6.5 Creedmoor for some time now with good results. I've reloaded my batch of brass between 5-7 times and felt that I needed to anneal it. Using an Anealeze I annealed the batch, did a re-size to push the shoulder back .002, cleaned the primer pockets and trimmed the cases basically giving the batch a full day at the spa.

So I also wanted to redo my load testing around my usual 41.7 grains of H4350 because of these changes and during my last reloading I don't think this load was doing as well as when I first started using it. My groups started to open up to .75" inches and a few out to 1" from a fairly solid .5".

So I've shot about 40 rounds with loads from 41.5 grains to 42.1 grains and I got two rounds where it looks like the firing punctured the primer(CCI). See attached picture.

I was able to push out one of the primers and I found flow back toward the primer around the primer pocket hole. You can also see by the picture that my primers are flattening more than I'd like. This is unusual considering how my first rounds from the load have worked up until now.

While shooting I noticed nothing wrong, outside of that my groups were not great. I was unable to fined this missing disk part of the primer. I took the bolt apart and found nothing wrong. The gun was cleaned prior to shooting. I have about 1500-1800 rounds in this barrel.

So my question is did I do the annealing wrong? Where is this pressure coming from? Be honest. I'm semi-new to reloading, certainly no expert.

Thanks in advance,

Duke

View attachment 1187601

Don’t have ne relading manuals handy but IMO the flattened primer are a positive indication off a hot load. yOu didn’t say what wt bullets you are shooting. 110 grbullets you should be near max load.

 

[Papa Charlie]

There are many things that can cause this issue. Annealing is probably on the lowest level of this list. I would double check you process. As for the disc from the primer, probably ended up inside the primer.

Possible causes:
1) Too hot of load, double check your load to bullet in the book
2) Improper load measurement, if using a digital scale, double check periodically during reloading process to ensure it has not drifted on you
3) Carbon ring, this can increase the pressure by restricting the bullets movement
4) If you did you load development during the winter and are now shooting in hotter weather, the load dynamics will change dramatically
5) Do you use multiple powders? Is it possible that you used the wrong one. It has happened.
6) Dirty barrel, excessive build up of copper or carbon in the bore can cause excessive pressure
***
100) Annealing issue, excessive heat can cause the zinc to leach out and burn off. This is visible in the flame by a yellow color instead of the blue color. On the excessive level, it will leave a white residue.

 

[mikecr]

IMO the flattened primer are a positive indication off a hot load.

I think more likely excess head space.
If shoulders were annealed before bumping, they would spring back less, and if not accounted for this could leave shoulders set back further.

 

[Lefty Trigger]

What neck lube do you recommend? Also, why did I not see this on my other rounds I've annealed?

What I do is use a 22 caliber bore mop and I "wet" it down with Hornady's paste lube and a quick twist in the neck is all that is needed. You dont much in there or it will cause your powder to clump at the neck. You could also use the dry graphite, I have it but that stuff makes a huge mess of your dies. Not sure that it is your issue just suggesting that it could be, I know it causes all kinds of weird issues for me.

 

[spclark]

I have changed to a brand new lot of powder...

THAT could be your culprit right there. Different batches can have different burn rates; some are notorious for that compared to others.

I wouldn't fault your having annealed those cases. There's likely something else that's causing the pressures you're seeing at the primers.

Annealing is usually done to increase case neck longevity, overcoming the tendency for brass to work-harden from repeatedly re-sizing then shooting it. It ought to help you keep control of neck tension during sizing and seating as well as make case necks respond more uniformly during that brief interval after the primers and propellant's ignited and those case necks begin to open up as the bullet begins to move forward.

I'd second the recommendation for getting your bolt bushed too.

 

[spclark]

What is the best cleaning solution for carbon build up like this?

There isn't any.

If it's truly a carbon ring in your chamber it's almost a ceramic once it's begun to accrete.

 

[Webster]

I think more likely excess head space.
If shoulders were annealed before bumping, they would spring back less, and if not accounted for this could leave shoulders set back further.

All factory loaded ammo has a lot of head space and they don’t flatten primers.

 

[Jennb]

I'm shooting a 142 gr Noz. I did trim after annealing and resizing. I'm shooting a Rem 700 action with a Hart barrel. I have changed to a brand new lot of powder...

Did you test the new lot of powder? Could be hotter.

 

[ngb1787]

I have shot a lot of 6.5, mostly with h4350, i would suggest 40.6gr,

 

[mikecr]

All factory loaded ammo has a lot of head space and they don’t flatten primers.

They can, but pockets on first firing are typically very tight. After a few firings, AND an excess headspace condition, the primers are first to reach the bolt face on firing. They smack with a good amount of force, and then re-seat when the case head reaches the bolt face. This can occur without a 'hot' load.
In contrast, I've run loads past SAAMI max -with cases at 1thou HS, and even seen some case head flow into the ejector(and wiping), while primers still were not flattening.

Primers are not reliable indicators of excess pressure.

 

[Hoot]

Did you test the new lot of powder? Could be hotter.

+1

I just got a fresh bottle of H4350 and I had to cut several grains off my recipes. The increased pressure way up here was not because it was hot. Temps the two days I was running new ladders were in the 70's in the mornings, when I prefer to go to the range. Our rifle range is alongside a high bluff to the east. the sun doesn't shine on it until around 11 AM. Then it heats up and I head home. For the record, I too have seen the insides of the necks get rough after annealing.

Hoot

 

[David Christian]

A new powder lot could well be a large contributor! Were the rounds in the picture the first ones fired with powder from the new lot?

Bingo!!! I never change lots without running a mini test to confirm the powder.

 

[CDuklet]

How much of the case was annealed?
Did you measure your shoulder bump with each round?

Neck and shoulders were annealed. I didn't measure every round, but most of the first few and spot checks after that.

 

[CDuklet]

There are many things that can cause this issue. Annealing is probably on the lowest level of this list. I would double check you process. As for the disc from the primer, probably ended up inside the primer.

Possible causes:
1) Too hot of load, double check your load to bullet in the book
2) Improper load measurement, if using a digital scale, double check periodically during reloading process to ensure it has not drifted on you
3) Carbon ring, this can increase the pressure by restricting the bullets movement
4) If you did you load development during the winter and are now shooting in hotter weather, the load dynamics will change dramatically
5) Do you use multiple powders? Is it possible that you used the wrong one. It has happened.
6) Dirty barrel, excessive build up of copper or carbon in the bore can cause excessive pressure
***
100) Annealing issue, excessive heat can cause the zinc to leach out and burn off. This is visible in the flame by a yellow color instead of the blue color. On the excessive level, it will leave a white residue.

Charlie,

1) I'm shooting 41.7 gr H4350 on a 142gr Nozler. I've shot this load for years.
2) Always use a digital scale and watch for drift.
3) I cleaned a carbon ring this weekend and have better results. More on another post.
4) Again, I've shot this load for years.
5) No, one new batch of powder. Never been opened.
6) Gun was cleaned prior to use, except for the carbon ring.

 

[CDuklet]

So here is what happened over the weekend:

• Local gun shop had a bore score and confirmed a carbon ring. Suggested CLR to clean it.
• Scrubbed it good with CLR on a nylon brush. Let it soak for 15 minutes, scrubbed again. Ran dry patches, came out all black. Cleaned with Hoppes. Ran dry patches and more came out. Cleaned with Hoppes Elite. Ran dry patches and more came out. Cleaned with Hoppes again. Ran dry patches and more came out. Finished with Windex(gun shop recommendation). Cleaned inside of necks with a brush. Used One Shot to lube inside of necks before loading.
• Took the gun to the gun shop, used bore scope, no ring.
• Shoot with normal load. In 10 shots, one primer blanked, still saw signs for over pressure. Confused at this point. Shot great though!
• Cleaned again with CLR/Hoppes/Windex. Still lots of black crud coming out. Cleaned inside of necks with brush. No One Shot this time.
• Shoot normal load. 10 shots, no blanking and less signs of over pressure. Shot well, not great.
• Cleaned again with same procedure. Going to shot again some evening this week.

Any suggestions?

Duke

 

[jelenko]

There isn't any.

If it's truly a carbon ring in your chamber it's almost a ceramic once it's begun to accrete.

Not even JB?

 

[rwj]

So here is what happened over the weekend:

• Local gun shop had a bore score and confirmed a carbon ring. Suggested CLR to clean it.
• Scrubbed it good with CLR on a nylon brush. Let it soak for 15 minutes, scrubbed again. Ran dry patches, came out all black. Cleaned with Hoppes. Ran dry patches and more came out. Cleaned with Hoppes Elite. Ran dry patches and more came out. Cleaned with Hoppes again. Ran dry patches and more came out. Finished with Windex(gun shop recommendation). Cleaned inside of necks with a brush. Used One Shot to lube inside of necks before loading.
• Took the gun to the gun shop, used bore scope, no ring.
• Shoot with normal load. In 10 shots, one primer blanked, still saw signs for over pressure. Confused at this point. Shot great though!
• Cleaned again with CLR/Hoppes/Windex. Still lots of black crud coming out. Cleaned inside of necks with brush. No One Shot this time.
• Shoot normal load. 10 shots, no blanking and less signs of over pressure. Shot well, not great.
• Cleaned again with same procedure. Going to shot again some evening this week.

Any suggestions?

Duke

Load rounds with incrementally lower powder charge weights. As you’re still seeing pressure signs, and are near the maximum Hodgdon recommended charge weight of 41.8 grains, I’d suggest lower in .3 grain increments down to ~38 grains. Shoot the rounds from each powder charge weight in separate groups. If you have a chronograph, measure and record the muzzle velocity of each round. If all goes to plan (you find an accuracy node), one group will be noticeably smaller than the others. It may also be the group having the least velocity variation.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Any time you change ANY component, whether it be the specific Lot of brass, primers, bullets, or powder, Lot-to-Lot variance can cause the load to change:

1) Different Lots of brass can have variance in internal volume, which can affect pressure.
2) Different Lots of primers can have variance in brisance, which can affect ignition.
3) Different Lots of bullets can vary dimensionally, which can affect pressure and seating depth.
4) Different Lots of powder can have burn rate variance, which can affect pressure.

At a minimum, testing new components using a slightly reduced load is a good idea. From the measured velocity of the reduced rounds, it will usually not be too difficult to estimate how close to previous load the "new" load will tune in with the new Lot of whatever component it you're using. At that point, you can test incrementally until the load tunes back in.

Although Lot-to-Lot powder burn rate variance can often be undetectable, or only a few fps, I've personally had Lots of Hodgdon powder where a new Lot# generated over 75 fp higher velocity than the old Lot#. Depending on the case volume, that's almost the same as increasing charge weight 0.5 to 1.0 gr, which would be a significant increase in pressure. All the other stuff you were asking about regarding annealing, how you're cleaning the cases, lubing the necks, etc., is more than likely a red herring. Use a reduced charge and measure velocity. It's the most expedient approach to issues of this sort. Carefully record the data for future comparison when you get new Lots of reloading components.

 

[wagonman]

So here is what happened over the weekend:

• Local gun shop had a bore score and confirmed a carbon ring. Suggested CLR to clean it.
• Scrubbed it good with CLR on a nylon brush. Let it soak for 15 minutes, scrubbed again. Ran dry patches, came out all black. Cleaned with Hoppes. Ran dry patches and more came out. Cleaned with Hoppes Elite. Ran dry patches and more came out. Cleaned with Hoppes again. Ran dry patches and more came out. Finished with Windex(gun shop recommendation). Cleaned inside of necks with a brush. Used One Shot to lube inside of necks before loading.
• Took the gun to the gun shop, used bore scope, no ring.
• Shoot with normal load. In 10 shots, one primer blanked, still saw signs for over pressure. Confused at this point. Shot great though!
• Cleaned again with CLR/Hoppes/Windex. Still lots of black crud coming out. Cleaned inside of necks with brush. No One Shot this time.
• Shoot normal load. 10 shots, no blanking and less signs of over pressure. Shot well, not great.
• Cleaned again with same procedure. Going to shot again some evening this week.

Any suggestions?

Duke

my brother made the mistake of using cci 400 primers in same load it was blanking every primer switched to cci 450 and it stopped thin cup on the 400 was it problem solved.