John708's Project has started
- Thread starter Rustystud
- Start date
JOHN708
Silver $$ Contributor
New 6brx loading data with Hodgdon V100
Here's some new reloading data using V100: 6MM brx 28 in. Broughton barrel, CCI br2 primers, Lupua brass, of course.
33.5 gr. 2835fps
2838fps
34.0 grs 2869fps
2835fps
34.5 grs 2881fps
2884fps
35.0 grs.2921fps
2915fps
35.5 grs 2948fps
36.o grs 2998fps, 3012 fps. Note this load showed pressure signs, ejector marks. Plus the case was filled to the top of the neck, bulkier than H4350.
I'm not impressed with the velocities generated by this powder, or how bulky it is. I didn't even bother to test accuracy, secondary to poor velocities generated with max loads, and how compressed the charges were. I'll be testing the new wonder powder, Re-17 soon.
John Skowron
Here's some new reloading data using V100: 6MM brx 28 in. Broughton barrel, CCI br2 primers, Lupua brass, of course.
33.5 gr. 2835fps
2838fps
34.0 grs 2869fps
2835fps
34.5 grs 2881fps
2884fps
35.0 grs.2921fps
2915fps
35.5 grs 2948fps
36.o grs 2998fps, 3012 fps. Note this load showed pressure signs, ejector marks. Plus the case was filled to the top of the neck, bulkier than H4350.
I'm not impressed with the velocities generated by this powder, or how bulky it is. I didn't even bother to test accuracy, secondary to poor velocities generated with max loads, and how compressed the charges were. I'll be testing the new wonder powder, Re-17 soon.
John Skowron
JOHN708 said:
John,
You've got my interest. How is the Rifle Basix Sav. 2 working out? I have a SSS and want to safely go lower in pull weight; it looks like the Sav. 2 will do this. Is it a good smooth trigger? I'm really considering the 6BRX for my Savage single shot action and would like to thank you for your reports and info.
Chino69
Forum Boss
Administrator
John,
Don't expect too much from Reloder 17 in the Dasher case. It's a powder that works best with cases that like H4350 or H4831sc. Jerry Tierney tried Reloder 17 in his Dasher. Acc. to Jerry "it shot OK, and is worth experimenting with, but you're going to run out of case capacity before you match the velocity of a faster-burning powder." Now, in the 6-6.5x47 or 6XC, with those cases' larger capacity... it's a different story.
Don't expect too much from Reloder 17 in the Dasher case. It's a powder that works best with cases that like H4350 or H4831sc. Jerry Tierney tried Reloder 17 in his Dasher. Acc. to Jerry "it shot OK, and is worth experimenting with, but you're going to run out of case capacity before you match the velocity of a faster-burning powder." Now, in the 6-6.5x47 or 6XC, with those cases' larger capacity... it's a different story.
JOHN708
Silver $$ Contributor
Thanks for the head's-up on Re-17 and velocity gains in the 6mmbrx-dasher. It sounds like this powder functions alot like v-100. I'll wait to I have some spare time to further confirm what you already know.
That's the absolutely great thing about this site. I can't tell you how much time and money I've saved from the info posted on this site. You all do a GREAT JOB!. Keep up the good work.
Thanks
John Skowron
That's the absolutely great thing about this site. I can't tell you how much time and money I've saved from the info posted on this site. You all do a GREAT JOB!. Keep up the good work.
Thanks
John Skowron
Folks I thought a Face with a name is a good thing. I snapped a couple of pictures of John708 today with his Number 2 or Number 3 6mmBRX. He has done so many I can't keep track without looking at the serial numbers. This is a left handed model 10 Savage action, a 31" Broughton, 1:8 5C barrel and a Stockade Elk Model stock. He has Ken Farrell Rings and Bases and a Leupold 8.5 X 25 scope.
Rustystud
Rustystud
I just replaced to extremely worn Savage bolt bodies,.696OD)with two PT&G replacement Savage bolt bodies,.701OD). First test were very positive. John708 thinks he gained at least a .1" in reduced group size. He will shoot again tommorow and know more.
The PT&G bolt bodies are machined from a solid piece of tool steel. They are thicker and therefore heavier. They really tightened up John708s guns. They are not just drop in, they require some fitting. Dave Kiff can make them in right, left, short, and long action lengths. He also makes them with straight and helical fluting. I believe they will make a significant improvement in the target action Savages. I will know shortly as I am building a target Savage for myself.
Rustystud
The PT&G bolt bodies are machined from a solid piece of tool steel. They are thicker and therefore heavier. They really tightened up John708s guns. They are not just drop in, they require some fitting. Dave Kiff can make them in right, left, short, and long action lengths. He also makes them with straight and helical fluting. I believe they will make a significant improvement in the target action Savages. I will know shortly as I am building a target Savage for myself.
Rustystud
JOHN708
Silver $$ Contributor
6brx and reloader-17
I've just completed some velocity and load accuracy testing with Re-17 and my 31 in. Broughton barreled 6brx. Bullet used 105 Berger seated 15 thousands into the lands. Primer CCI br-4. 2 shots fired at each powder weight.
33 grs 2811-2816 fps
33.5 grs 2867-2872
34 grs 2878-2886
34.5 grs 2930-2938
35 grs 2980-2974
35.5 grs 3011-3029
36 grs 3063-3063 slight ejector marks
36.5 grs 3074-3119 slight ejector marks
37 grs 3127-3157 slight ejector marks
I continued my testing upward. I reached 3280fps! However there were moderate to heavy ejector marks on the case, so I didn't think it wise to list the powder charge. I chronoed 5 additional shots at 36 gr. My ES was 11 fps. However, This load only grouped in the .8's at 100 yds, 10 shot group. I picked up only 30 fps over my existing load of 32.5 grs of varget, with less accuracy. In my experience accuracy falls off with this cartridge when you go over 33+ grs. of powder. I intend to cont. to stick with Re-15 and Varget.
John Skowron
I've just completed some velocity and load accuracy testing with Re-17 and my 31 in. Broughton barreled 6brx. Bullet used 105 Berger seated 15 thousands into the lands. Primer CCI br-4. 2 shots fired at each powder weight.
33 grs 2811-2816 fps
33.5 grs 2867-2872
34 grs 2878-2886
34.5 grs 2930-2938
35 grs 2980-2974
35.5 grs 3011-3029
36 grs 3063-3063 slight ejector marks
36.5 grs 3074-3119 slight ejector marks
37 grs 3127-3157 slight ejector marks
I continued my testing upward. I reached 3280fps! However there were moderate to heavy ejector marks on the case, so I didn't think it wise to list the powder charge. I chronoed 5 additional shots at 36 gr. My ES was 11 fps. However, This load only grouped in the .8's at 100 yds, 10 shot group. I picked up only 30 fps over my existing load of 32.5 grs of varget, with less accuracy. In my experience accuracy falls off with this cartridge when you go over 33+ grs. of powder. I intend to cont. to stick with Re-15 and Varget.
John Skowron
John
If you dont mind, could you test H4350 again?
From reading all 7 pages so far, one thing stood out to me.. and that was H4350. It seems you cant get enough of it in the case to get pressure issues. This is avery handy attribute.
Could you test maybe hotter primers with the H4350 and let us know what the results are. I just assume being a slower powder a hotter primer maybe needed.
This would be one of the best threads to date. If you are a 6mmBRX shooter, this is like a bible of knowledge.
I am a Dasher shooter, but this data is very close to what I would be using anyway!
Well done!
Cheers
AI
If you dont mind, could you test H4350 again?
From reading all 7 pages so far, one thing stood out to me.. and that was H4350. It seems you cant get enough of it in the case to get pressure issues. This is avery handy attribute.
Could you test maybe hotter primers with the H4350 and let us know what the results are. I just assume being a slower powder a hotter primer maybe needed.
This would be one of the best threads to date. If you are a 6mmBRX shooter, this is like a bible of knowledge.
I am a Dasher shooter, but this data is very close to what I would be using anyway!
Well done!
Cheers
AI
JOHN708
Silver $$ Contributor
Hi AI,
Thanks for the compliment. To answer your questions: Mag. primers were designed to ignite large volumes of powder in large capacity cartridges. You won't necessarily obtain higher vel. with mag. primers and slow powder. The 3 best powders to use in the brx if you want to obtain higher vel. are VV550, VV540 and H4350. Higher velocities don't equate to better groups. Every cartridge has a bullet, velocity combination that works best in that cartridge. In my experience, with this cartridge, 105's and 107's running between 3000-3100 fps yield the best accuracy. I hope this helps.
John Skowron
Thanks for the compliment. To answer your questions: Mag. primers were designed to ignite large volumes of powder in large capacity cartridges. You won't necessarily obtain higher vel. with mag. primers and slow powder. The 3 best powders to use in the brx if you want to obtain higher vel. are VV550, VV540 and H4350. Higher velocities don't equate to better groups. Every cartridge has a bullet, velocity combination that works best in that cartridge. In my experience, with this cartridge, 105's and 107's running between 3000-3100 fps yield the best accuracy. I hope this helps.
John Skowron
Life after Death
John came to my house last weekend with two rifles chambered 6mmBRXs that had expired. The combined pair had well over 6000 rounds between them. The future holds another 31' Broughton 5C in 6mmBRX for one. The other is going to be a surprise to all. John has such good data on the 6mmBRX he is going to do a little experimentation with another cartridge designed years ago but due to poor quality brass and bullets it did not survive mass production. We are wild cating a wild cat back to a factory cartridge,new neck size)but with modern brass and high quality BC.
This mystery cartridge will on paper/computer shoot inside the 6mmBRX at a 1000 yards bucking the wind by a few inches. It also will cost more to shoot IE: components, and barrel life. It also will produce more recoil. We think it will be less inherently accurate than the 6mmBRX. I am sure John will keep us informed to his progress. For those who are interested John's 6mmBRX project it has lead to about 25 of my other customers experimenting with the 6mmBRX and no telling how many more we don't know about. Almost every thought John had about the great qualities of the 6mmBRX have been verified through the life of three barrels totalling over 9000 rounds. I now will take John's expired barrels and make muzzle brakes and other tooling out of them. So there is another case of life after death.
Have a great day at the range, and keep them in the X ring.
Nat Lambeth
John came to my house last weekend with two rifles chambered 6mmBRXs that had expired. The combined pair had well over 6000 rounds between them. The future holds another 31' Broughton 5C in 6mmBRX for one. The other is going to be a surprise to all. John has such good data on the 6mmBRX he is going to do a little experimentation with another cartridge designed years ago but due to poor quality brass and bullets it did not survive mass production. We are wild cating a wild cat back to a factory cartridge,new neck size)but with modern brass and high quality BC.
This mystery cartridge will on paper/computer shoot inside the 6mmBRX at a 1000 yards bucking the wind by a few inches. It also will cost more to shoot IE: components, and barrel life. It also will produce more recoil. We think it will be less inherently accurate than the 6mmBRX. I am sure John will keep us informed to his progress. For those who are interested John's 6mmBRX project it has lead to about 25 of my other customers experimenting with the 6mmBRX and no telling how many more we don't know about. Almost every thought John had about the great qualities of the 6mmBRX have been verified through the life of three barrels totalling over 9000 rounds. I now will take John's expired barrels and make muzzle brakes and other tooling out of them. So there is another case of life after death.
Have a great day at the range, and keep them in the X ring.
Nat Lambeth
You can ask John, I beleive one barrel has over 3600 +/- rounds and I believe the other is around 3000 +/- rounds in it. One of these barrels we set back but really did not get a significant amount of additional barrel life. Looking down the bore there is little rifling left for the first 2 inches past the throat.
John's criterior is for a barrel to begin shooting ten shot groups sub .5 100 yard groups and he considers them done when ten groups open up to .7 at 100 yards. Most of Johns 6mmBRXs have shot 10 shot groups in the low .4s at 100. As they have aged they begin to loose elevation and or throw flyers.
As for your getting 5000 rounds out of a 6mmBRX I really can't see it even with a few set backs. The difference in shooting 2850 fps in a 6mmBR and 3050 in a 6mmBRX is significant. If you compare the 6mmBRX to a 243 Winchester one is getting just above twice the barrel life. I see very few .243s getting more than 1500 rounds of barrel life.
There is a big difference in shooting at 200, 300, and 600 verus 600-1000 yards.
Nat
John's criterior is for a barrel to begin shooting ten shot groups sub .5 100 yard groups and he considers them done when ten groups open up to .7 at 100 yards. Most of Johns 6mmBRXs have shot 10 shot groups in the low .4s at 100. As they have aged they begin to loose elevation and or throw flyers.
As for your getting 5000 rounds out of a 6mmBRX I really can't see it even with a few set backs. The difference in shooting 2850 fps in a 6mmBR and 3050 in a 6mmBRX is significant. If you compare the 6mmBRX to a 243 Winchester one is getting just above twice the barrel life. I see very few .243s getting more than 1500 rounds of barrel life.
There is a big difference in shooting at 200, 300, and 600 verus 600-1000 yards.
Nat
Donovan:
I can't speak for John but I use a two solvent approach in cleaning my barrels. I use a mixture of GM top engine cleaner and Marvel Mystery Oil for carbon and I use Montana Extreme for copper. I have also used Coleman Lentern fuel to cut carbon.
I am not sure carbon is what is taking out the rifling most bores look normal with wear until the last 200 rounds before expire. When barrels begin to go we get fliers about every 4-5 round then they go completly south.
John shoots long range prone and he often shoots 100+ rounds in a day. The combination of heat and fouling may take a higher toll on his barrrels. I can not explain your barrels longitivity vs Johns. I suspect heat is a factor. John lives in Raleigh and shoots at Butner. Last summer June, July and August the matches sometimes were over 100 degrees. There were a number of folks having preasure issues. Also John was shooting in 90-100% humidity.
Shooters BR and for fun shooters don't generally stress their barrels with strings of fire. A barrel in one situation can not be compared to another situation and expect the same results.
what has been said here is what it is.
John may want to address these issues as well.
Nat Lambeth
I can't speak for John but I use a two solvent approach in cleaning my barrels. I use a mixture of GM top engine cleaner and Marvel Mystery Oil for carbon and I use Montana Extreme for copper. I have also used Coleman Lentern fuel to cut carbon.
I am not sure carbon is what is taking out the rifling most bores look normal with wear until the last 200 rounds before expire. When barrels begin to go we get fliers about every 4-5 round then they go completly south.
John shoots long range prone and he often shoots 100+ rounds in a day. The combination of heat and fouling may take a higher toll on his barrrels. I can not explain your barrels longitivity vs Johns. I suspect heat is a factor. John lives in Raleigh and shoots at Butner. Last summer June, July and August the matches sometimes were over 100 degrees. There were a number of folks having preasure issues. Also John was shooting in 90-100% humidity.
Shooters BR and for fun shooters don't generally stress their barrels with strings of fire. A barrel in one situation can not be compared to another situation and expect the same results.
what has been said here is what it is.
John may want to address these issues as well.
Nat Lambeth
One thing that I believe contributes to reductions in accuracy as a bbls round count grows is the condition of the throat.
Why do you think that D Tubb sells his Throat Maintenance System with abrasives?
Check out the cracking and frosted appearance of the throat when the bbl has a bunch of rounds down it. This bbl condition certainly has a negative effect on the bullet as it starts on its journey.
You need to keep that throat smoothed by lapping or polishing. If the bullet jacket is damaged in the first 1/2 inch of travel, then accuracy is going to suffer.
A smooth throat will allow the bbl to shoot better longer.
Don't forget about the crown as well. Many rounds down the tube and the crown is worse for wear. That needs to be addressed at intervals too. The crown is also one of the easiest items to keep in good repair.
Bob
Why do you think that D Tubb sells his Throat Maintenance System with abrasives?
Check out the cracking and frosted appearance of the throat when the bbl has a bunch of rounds down it. This bbl condition certainly has a negative effect on the bullet as it starts on its journey.
You need to keep that throat smoothed by lapping or polishing. If the bullet jacket is damaged in the first 1/2 inch of travel, then accuracy is going to suffer.
A smooth throat will allow the bbl to shoot better longer.
Don't forget about the crown as well. Many rounds down the tube and the crown is worse for wear. That needs to be addressed at intervals too. The crown is also one of the easiest items to keep in good repair.
Bob
John708 picked up his 4th 6mmBRX barrel. It is installed on a older F series left handed model 10 Savage. This barrel is another Broughton in light palma contour finish lenght 31'. The twist and rifling is 1:8, and 5C. This time the barrel nut went home with John in a zip lock bag with some other worn out parts. The barrel was glass bead finished and has a 79 degree dish crown instead of a counterbored step crown. The chamber was inspected and is concentric and co-axial to .0001 or better. John has this rifle in a Stockade Elk model stock,thumbhole). John's loaded fire formed brass from another rifle had to be full length sized with a body die. The web area on this new rifle is tighter than the previous barrel. It was pooring rain when John came to pick it up and we could only shoot from under my front porch to a 50 yard target. John shot a couple bug hole targets. His 32.5 plus grain load of varget showed no signs of presure. He shot both Sierra 107s and Berger 105s testing different seating depths from .0010 out to .0010 into the rifling. John has a 1000 yard match this weekend and we will see if he can pick up where his 6mmBRX barrels number 1-3 left off. John as had some frustrations with his .284 project. It was good to see him with a ear to ear grin as he left. I am sure he will add to this post but he has confirmed that 6mm is the way to go and the 6mmBRX is the optimal cartridge of the 6mms for long range prone shooting.What the 6mmBRX gives up in velocity it regains in inherit accuracy, cost, pleasure to shoot.
Nat Lambeth
Nat Lambeth
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