Is tune affected by SS pin tumbling ?

[ratbuster]

I gave up stainless pin tumbling several years ago, preferring to leave the carbon residue inside the neck for best consistency. I have some brass that have lots of reloads on them without cleaning and they are getting pretty grimy so I am considering tumbling them to make them shiny new again.

Should I expect the tune and/or SD to change appreciably from the carbon removal?

Another factor is peening of case mouths although I know minimizing the time in the tumbler reduces that issue.

I'll probably get around to chrono and accuracy testing. Maybe load 10 each of wet tumbled bare, treated with Mica, treated with Hornady One Shot as well as a control group of 10 dirty cases.

If any one has tested carbon vs. no carbon it would be great to hear what you found.

Phil

 

[mikecr]

The dirtiest cases in the world hold less than a kernel of powder worth of capacity difference. So pressure will not change with a cleaner case due to H20 capacity difference.
A squeaky clean neck raises bullet seating forces due to increased friction. But this is not tension (bullet grip), so again there is no affect to load pressure. You can restore ~normal seating forces with a dry film lubricant/bullet coating.
It will neither hurt, nor help anything.

 

[ratbuster]

The dirtiest cases in the world hold less than a kernel of powder worth of capacity difference. So pressure will not change with a cleaner case due to H20 capacity difference.
A squeaky clean neck raises bullet seating forces due to increased friction. But this is not tension (bullet grip), so again there is no affect to load pressure. You can restore ~normal seating forces with a dry film lubricant/bullet coating.
It will neither hurt, nor help anything.

I was only wondering about potential velocity changes as a result of friction changes between bullet and brass. I would think more grip on the bullet should raises pressure.

 

[Richard Coody]

i used to use an ultrasonic. cleans cases much like wet tumbling in pins. for me leaving the carbon in the necks allows me to have much better control over the consistency of my neck tension. yes i have experimented with the imperial dry neck lube and still use it for new brass. just never could get that consistency that i can with the carbon. many ways to skin this cat. whatever works for you.

now this is just for my range rifles. lots of.this stuff i do not apply to my hunting rifles. for me the things that have had the greatest impact to my rifles precision is.

careful brass prep. lapua brass, sort out the oddballs, neck turn for consistent neck thickness, leave the carbon in the necks, wipe off the outside with ballistol and lightly brush out the necks with a nylon brush. light chamfer and debur every reloading, don't mess with flash holes or uniform primer pockets, do clean primer pockets with a hand tool, run a wilson depriming rod through the flash hole when cleaning to make sure it is clear.

anneal every firing. consistent annealing is mandatory. have used the geraud for years but now no question the AMP is the best way to ensure consistency.

size with a custom or simi custom die. use mandrel for final neck size.

prime with sinclair priming tool to a firm seat

weigh powder with the most accurate method possible. i like Adam's Autotrickler System.

seat bullets with the 21st century shooting hydro press and wilson in-line dies. surest way to find out if your neck tension is consistent.

check concentricity with the 21st century concentricity gauge. lets you know if you have issues in your reloading process.

most important: brass prep, annealing, accurate powder charge, seating depth, consistent neck tension.

 

[butchlambert]

I think your wind reading ability is much more important than this.

 

[Richard Coody]

I think your wind reading ability is much more important than this.

i agree the wind is the great equalizer. wind reading is an art only learned with experience. that said i like to control the variables i can. no doubt with the greatest of wind reading skills without the tools to take advantage of it you are greatly handicapped. anyway i love the reloading activity as much as shooting and the majority of my shooting is short range benchrest.

bet this fellow is serious about his reloading tecniques

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2018/07/0-1-moa-at-1k-amazing-1-068-50-5x-group-at-1000-yards/

 

[butchlambert]

i agree the wind is the great equalizer. wind reading is an art only learned with experience. that said i like to control the variables i can. no doubt with the greatest of wind reading skills without the tools to take advantage of it you are greatly handicapped. anyway i love the reloading activity as much as shooting and the majority of my shooting is short range benchrest.

bet this fellow is serious about his reloading tecniques

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2018/07/0-1-moa-at-1k-amazing-1-068-50-5x-group-at-1000-yards/

Mike is careful, but in your reloading I believe other things are much more important. In the "olden days" 30 years ago, I measured pressure to seat primers, to check and segregate by pressure to seat bullets, inside ream brass before turning, turning the base to be 90deg to the axis of the brass, and man I could go on.
Yes, I did ream the flash holes, deburred the flash holes on the inside, and uniformed the primer pockets. I've shot a couple matches using a Prometheus powder thrower. All of that was fun at the time, but I started shooting a lot better after spending more time behind the trigger.I'm not saying for you to quit what you are doing, but your greatest shooting increases will come from putting bullets down range.

 

[steve123]

I still SS clean when the cases get ratty. I don't have a regular tumbler anymore and US cleaning was a pain with my cheap unit.

Peening - it's time to trim anyway by then, do a light debur and chamfer, NECO for inside the necks, shoot the cases for how ever many firings you want.

I go through this every 4 firings, and also anneal. 2nd through 4th I just wipe them off with a paper towel after sizing and that's it.

 

[Rsadams]

Mike is careful, but in your reloading I believe other things are much more important. In the "olden days" 30 years ago, I measured pressure to seat primers, to check and segregate by pressure to seat bullets, inside ream brass before turning, turning the base to be 90deg to the axis of the brass, and man I could go on.
Yes, I did ream the flash holes, deburred the flash holes on the inside, and uniformed the primer pockets. I've shot a couple matches using a Prometheus powder thrower. All of that was fun at the time, but I started shooting a lot better after spending more time behind the trigger.I'm not saying for you to quit what you are doing, but your greatest shooting increases will come from putting bullets down range.

Nailed it....If you can't shoot to the ammo or rifles full potential , your wasting time and money.. I see guys shooting sub moa with out of the box rifles , $300 scopes (maybe) and a rest setup that most would turn their nose up at and laugh... Then there's the guys that shoot once or twice a month with a whole truck load of expensive stuff , including the truck , high dollar rifle and scope taking up two benches with their crap shooting moa , maybe and can't figure it out... Must be the rifle or scope is bad and needs to be sent back etc etc etc ....

 

[Regnar]

I dont understand the people who reply with wind reading is MORE important than good reloading techniques.

First, I believe that to be false. does anyone think that either the 1k or 600 pending world record could have been achieved without pain staking attention to detail? in fact, I doubt any of the top competitors do anything but anal retentive reloading. so if you want to get to the top you better do what the top is doing.

Also, people say that if you cant shoot to the ammo and rifles potential than its a waste of time. i disagree with that as well. A competitor is better with a rifle and technique that is capable of way better than his shooting abikity than he is with on that is equal or worse. one, its a money SAVER not waster. As a shooter grows and improves in ability he has a rifle he is familar with and does not have to replace the rifle for something better to get to the next level, just a barrel perhaps.

Having a more accurate rifle and technique also allows you to gauge your peogress, both shooting and wind reading. How can a shooter trying to improve wind reading skills make accurate judgements about his shots if he is not confident on what caused it? Reloading texhnique? Rifle? Shooter? or was it in fact a missed wind call?

I think the last thing wrong with the statement that you need to shoot as hood as your rifle and reloads is this. if you are shooting a 1 moa rifle at 1k and keeping everything in the 10 ring because you area moa shooter at best, what happens when he misses a slight 1/2wind shift? his moa rifle could now miss 1/2 moa outside the 10 where if he was shooting a 1/4 moa rifle and relaods he would still be able to keep it in the ten.

Buy the best you can afford and rhe best you can find. doit it right once. Buy once cry once.

 

[urbanrifleman]

My guns shoot better since I stopped SS cleaning my bench gun brass. I absolutely believe that cleaning causes more problems than it fixes. All cleaning for that matter. I wipe the case with 409 after sizing to remove the wax lube and scrape the primer pockets with a small screwdriver and my groups are tighter than ever.

I was one of the first people back in the day to show the effects of peening, and ultrasonic cleaning was a total nightmare for neck tension.

No one cares what my brass looks like. It is fodder for the OCD cleaning brass... the only spotless brass I have has been fully processed from the ground up on mechanical Dillons in 556 for my AR15s.

 

[mikecr]

I was only wondering about potential velocity changes as a result of friction changes between bullet and brass. I would think more grip on the bullet should raises pressure.

Bullet 'grip', 'tension', is neck spring back against an area of seated bullet bearing. It has nothing to do with friction.
Bullets are released from necks through neck expansion.

 

[cw308]

I switched from dry to wet with SS Pins , didn't like the buildup inside the case , sometime with the dry I would have corn stuck in the shoulder , after seeing some grains on the press , I would Run a small Cotton patch on the cleaning rod an put it in a sized case an more grains would be stuck in the case even after tapping the case . My groups are tight , I do add the Imperial dry lube on a cleaning mop to lightly coat the inside of the necks , stops the bonding between the clean brass an the copper on the bullet , also seats very smooth and consistent .

Dry cases I could see gripping the bullet especially if your not shooting the bullets within a week , causing a rise in pressure , your chronograph should be able to see for sure , worth a test . I like shooting with all cases equally as clean , trimmed to the same size every time , full length sized to . 0015 - .002 case headspace no more or less .

Gave my dry vibrating tumbler an media corn an walnut to a friend . Will never go back to dry , sorry guys I a clean freak , even clean my rifle after every range trip , JB an all , barrel shines like a mirror . Am I starting a war with , don't clean until my groups open up.

I like to kick this stuff around , tight groups are what we're all aiming for , that's a play on words . Be Safe out there.

Chris

 

[JohnKielly]

I dont understand the people who reply with wind reading is MORE important than good reloading techniques.

It's like the guys who say to a newbie, "Buy that old clunker there. It's good enough until you skill up."

 

[ratbuster]

and ultrasonic cleaning was a total nightmare for neck tension.

Could you please elaborate why ultrasonic cleaning was detrimental for neck tension?

 

[urbanrifleman]

Could you please elaborate why ultrasonic cleaning was detrimental for neck tension?

Absolutely. I was not the only one that reported all kinds of problems, in fact people were advocating needing to LUBE the necks after ultrasonic cleaning because they were so clean the inside of the necks were like 600 grit sandpaper.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Bullet 'grip', 'tension', is neck spring back against an area of seated bullet bearing. It has nothing to do with friction.
Bullets are released from necks through neck expansion.

Um. Yes it does. Are you kidding?

 

[seymour fish]

I still SS clean when the cases get ratty. I don't have a regular tumbler anymore and US cleaning was a pain with my cheap unit.

Peening - it's time to trim anyway by then, do a light debur and chamfer, NECO for inside the necks, shoot the cases for how ever many firings you want.

I go through this every 4 firings, and also anneal. 2nd through 4th I just wipe them off with a paper towel after sizing and that's it.

Steve, is that NECO you mention a steel shot plus moly deal, or ?

 

[steve123]

Steve, is that NECO you mention a steel shot plus moly deal, or ?

I use their dry lube, I've got the kit with those little balls in it, but I dip a bore mop into the container, tap off the excess, and swab the insides of the necks after they've been charged with powder. That's only after SS cleaning is done, trimming, debur/chamfer.

I'm on 37 cycles now with 6x47L and just want my brass cleaned real good on the inside occasionally.

 

[seymour fish]

I use their dry lube, I've got the kit with those little balls in it, but I dip a bore mop into the container, tap off the excess, and swab the insides of the necks after they've been charged with powder. That's only after SS cleaning is done, trimming, debur/chamfer.

I'm on 37 cycles now with 6x47L and just want my brass cleaned real good on the inside occasionally.

Thanks Steve