Is RCBS just another import marketing company these days ?

[JRS]

As is usually the case, well written, Boyd

Thank you!

 

[fredo]

If you are angry about union corruption, consider that virtually all human endeavor of any size is, that it is the nature of human enterprise.

Not angry, just making commentary on how silly a thread like this is.
IE, complaining about the puddle on the ground, in lieu of the hurricane above which caused it.

BTW, I have daily, firsthand & personal experience dealing with labor, civic, private, or whatever label otherwise ascribed to a "union". Thus, sharing a brutally honest opinion of what I see and know to be true, based on those observations...

Sorry to break it to you pro-union folks. But this is the world we are living in. What was once a good & noble attempt to secure workers rights is being bastardized for personal gain. Not anyone's fault, its human nature.

 

[Steve Blair]

The problem isn't with labor unions, but rather the private sector unions. It is the private sector that makes up the majority of union membership in the U.S. Once unions in this country are gone, the voice for labor, labor law protection and representation goes with them. Non-union employees will not speak up, for fear of losing their jobs. It's always been that way, and will remain that way.

[br]
In 2014, public sector union membership was 7.2M, private sector 7.4M. Not much of a majority and it will not last long. Public sector unions, far more damaging to the US than private sector, are gaining membership while private sector membership is falling. [br]
http://www.wsj.com/articles/membership-rate-falls-for-u-s-unions-in-2014-1422028558

 

[JRS]

The problem isn't with labor unions, but rather the private sector unions. It is the private sector that makes up the majority of union membership in the U.S. Once unions in this country are gone, the voice for labor, labor law protection and representation goes with them. Non-union employees will not speak up, for fear of losing their jobs. It's always been that way, and will remain that way.

[br]
In 2014, public sector union membership was 7.2M, private sector 7.4M. Not much of a majority and it will not last long. Public sector unions, far more damaging to the US than private sector, are gaining membership while private sector membership is falling. [br]
http://www.wsj.com/articles/membership-rate-falls-for-u-s-unions-in-2014-1422028558

Whether one, or, one million, it is the majority. I referenced "labor" (as in construction labor) unions, and not the entire public sector. We'll see just how damaging those unions are once they are gone. Try to explain to your children/grandchildren why they can't voice opinions/concerns in their work place, without fear of losing their jobs, and why their wages are so paltry

 

[/VH]

How many are willing to put their money where their mouth is. Count me as one.

American made car - $70,000.00+ My F350, No Bailout Edition didn't cost that much.
Quality American made dress shoes - $285.00+
" " " " shirts - $75.00+ My shoes/boots were made in Spokane, Olathe and El Paso, $285 wouldn't touch some of them.
The list goes on and on. If Americans had the slightest interest in buying American, there would be no Walmart, Target, etc; etc. Those complaining the most, have no problem shopping at these stores. Please don't classify me as non-American, I do have a large interest in buying American and I don't shop at Walmart and have never been in a Target store. If our cars and trucks were 100% American made, you would be paying twice the price you pay now. You want quality for cheap. Wrong, I want quality. It doesn't work that way. Correct but it appears that most 'surrender monkeys' don't seem to understand the power of individual Americans, collectively, to shape the market. i.e., what you accept and support by paying for, is what you will get. To those that complain about jobs being outsourced while continuing to support/buy outsourced "goods" and to those that also look for protection from and to place blame on the government and labor unions; I will gladly loan you a good old American made log chain should you decide you'd like to pull your head out.

 

[Barlow]

Absolutely, I agree. Shouldn't make a blanket accusation.

Point was, there is a pervasive 'union mentality' that has taken over...EVERYWHERE.

Hard work is no longer rewarded, and the lowest common denominator is what workers strive to achieve. IE, do as little work as possible, still make the same $$$ and reap the same benefits as your fellow hardworking employee.
The current union atmosphere allows that to happen, and actually protects it! And when that hardworking employee realizes that a slack-azz co-worker is getting the same wage as him/her, then the entire workforce becomes polluted...

Sadly, that is what happens in today's workforce. The notion of "do as little as possible to skate by, while padding your pockets with overtime & adding to your pension from incentives" is what I see that drives today's union labor force.

Take your Jefferson quote & apply it to unions & union labor. Same rules apply.

 

[ShootDots]

Here is another perspective on unions. From the late 1800's, for sake of argument, let's say from 1880 on, we had "The Industrial Revolution" in full swing. Primarily, the Northeast went from an agrarian society to an industrial complex society. Labor laws were all but a figment of "the workers" imagination. The "Company" used every tactic in the book to exploit every imaginable hour, to be wrung out of an employee. There were NO benefits, NO "overtime", NO work "rules" just pushing the envelope as far as possible. Obviously this was not the case with EVERY "Company", however, it was with enough of them that eventually a backlash erupted. A fellow by the name of Samuel Gompers arose from the frustration and exploitation and grew what we now know as "The Union Movement" which was a direct result of the unscrupulous acts of the majority of "Companies / Corporations".. There was, for a "season", a severe battle between the Companies and the Unions. However, some time later, they found it beneficial to work "hand-n-hand" so that the flow of work and a "fair share" of profits went both to the Company and to wages. This synergistic concept worked so well that The United States of America became the undisputed KING of commerce, finances and power, throughout the world. Like the Companies that took "exploitation" too far, the Unions started down that road too. The backlash became evident and now unionization is at an all-time low.

As the old adage goes "if you do not learn from history, you WILL be doomed to repeat it" and so here we are, once again where the "Companies" are beginning to exploit the workforce. Top level management USED to be about 15 times the wages of the average worker they managed. Now it is in excess of 35 times their wages. In many cases, if not most, "Golden Parachutes" for top level managers are part of the "Benefit Package".. But try and find a decent "Retirement Package" from most Corporations today! They are stuck on this 401K deal that NEVER seems to produce what a good pension plan USED to allow for. The Ups and Downs of the stock market almost guarantee that YOUR 401K and I.R.A. will never produce what a solid pension system gave the employees! So, it will only be a matter of time before the "Union Movement" will, once again, gain a foothold and eventually arise like the proverbial Phoenix from the ashes. REMEMBER: the "nay-sayers" did not think it possible at the turn of the century (1800's to 1900's) and they are making the exact same mistake again!

If we could eliminate "the human element" of deceit, greed, exploitation and out right sloth, from the equation, there would NEVER be a need for workers to "unite".. Until such a time exists, we will have this "struggle" between the "owners / management" and the people they employ. And it is on BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE>> Bosses and Workers>>>make no mistake!

 

[bheadboy]

Since this has gotten of on labor, I find I must put in my .02 worth, FWIW

I run a (my own, privately held) business with 19 hourly and salary employees in 3 locations. of the 19 -- 9 are committed, hard workers doing what is necessary, working the hours necessary to get the job done - been here between 3 years and 14 years

the rest roll over like leaves in the wind, they will work to earn the $ the want then call in sick, or other excuse, or just not show up, I interview, hire, they are hot to trot, then they never show up the first day to work,

if I could find those non-citizens you talk about taking the jobs i would gladly pay those willing to work the same $ i pay the rest,

By the way in case you think i am paying too little and that is the problem - i pay well over the min wage or my competition and give good raises to the steady workers.

the problem is bigger than union, politics, regulations, it is people!

i am 81 years old next week and i have worked since i was 12yr, carried groceries out, dug ditches, sold, manufactured, worked in union plant, marketed, run my own business, never have i seen the preponderance of sorry trifling young to middle age POTENTIAL workers.

i don't blame companies for moving plants out of the states

Bob

 

[/VH]

Why should the conditions of my employment be anything other than an agreement between my employer and me? In this great but formerly greater country, I am free to not work for anyone that I so choose. An employer should also be free to not employ anyone that they so choose not to employ. Ain't that what liberty is about?

 

[savagedasher]

Except for the U.S. and a few other countries, after World War Two, the worlds manufacturing base was in shambles and basically destroyed. During the war, we had the most efficient manufacturing system ever known and used it after the war to become the world's supplier of finished goods. We bought raw materials from developing countries and used our own to make finished goods. Adding value to those raw materials, that is what builds a middle class and during that time, good paying jobs, whether they be union or non union were used to send kids to college, buy houses, cars and generally live a good life. It's what the rest of the world, mainly China, has learned but it has taken them a long time to come on board to that way building their middle classes. Look at what China is doing now, buying raw materials from US, amongst others, lumber, metal, cotton, and other commodities and turning them in to finished products and then shipping them to Walmart, Target, Kmart, Cabela's, Bass Pro, etc. They figured it out, congress passed free trade laws (both sides of the aisle) and as a result, real wages have stagnated but we have been able to maintain a reasonably good standard of living through cheap imported finished goods. The only "gotcha" to this lifestyle is good paying U.S. manufacturing jobs going offshore and the demise of what was once a flourishing blue collar supported middle class, the tax base necessary to support the social safety nets, national debt and infrastructure. You can blame America's manufacturing malaise on the unions, regulations, work ethics or demographics but from where I sit, the world just caught up to us, it is what it is and likely isn't going to change anytime soon.

My son just got his job retired to Mexico after 26 years with GE.. They had balls enough to ask him to go there and train. I he had ben union he would be getting $3000 a month. When you here about the reason Mexicans are crossing the boarder tis all about money and lazy Americans . A good tomato picker makes $250.00 a day tax free and works 7 days a week. Same with oranges. That in excess of $80.000 tax free dollars
Then you see their wife go to the grocery store in a new pick up get 3 shopping carts full of groceries and pay with a EBT card. Tell me why we don't want to secure our borders . You don't think it all about American profit? USA is for most part is lazy . Very few have ever had to work . Their incapable of making any thing.
Let alone modify something to make it work. No better example is this site . Someone bragged he got a crono because it was so easy to set up. I cant tell you how many time I have talk about case capacity And get a response of total weight. Or it don't work . I have good success with repeatability From the knowledge I acquired having to make something work. OLD SCHOOL . First shot gun I had broke the firing pin I got it out both pieces and took it to a tool and die shop where a neighbor worked. He got a round bar and put it in a forge and let it cool handed me some files and calipers and said go make it your self. Every so often he would come over and showed me what to do. I screwed up the first two. The third I realized I was trying to do it too fast. With his guidance I got it correct. He then showed me how to temper it properly. Those skills are a lost art.
Automation gives us the ability to now make a product better and faster then skilled man could in a fraction of time. Japan still teaches skills and they must have a job to live . In the USA we don't need a job to live.
Put the blame where it belongs. It wasn't my fathers generation or mine because I passed what I was taught on to my son daughters. I'm proud they are doing the same. They all have chosen good mate with the same values .The all work hard and give over 100% to their job and don't miss work. All three have had the same job for over 25 years. My son lost his job with GE to Mexico. Cheap labor ? who knows But for sure better profit for GE and their share holders. The firing pin is still working and the skill has ben passed on.
Think when you are shooting the scope bullets brass and powder Isn't made with parts from the USA.
Merry Christmas Larry

 

[savagedasher]

Since this has gotten of on labor, I find I must put in my .02 worth, FWIW

I run a (my own, privately held) business with 19 hourly and salary employees in 3 locations. of the 19 -- 9 are committed, hard workers doing what is necessary, working the hours necessary to get the job done - been here between 3 years and 14 years

the rest roll over like leaves in the wind, they will work to earn the $ the want then call in sick, or other excuse, or just not show up, I interview, hire, they are hot to trot, then they never show up the first day to work,

if I could find those non-citizens you talk about taking the jobs i would gladly pay those willing to work the same $ i pay the rest,

By the way in case you think i am paying too little and that is the problem - i pay well over the min wage or my competition and give good raises to the steady workers.

the problem is bigger than union, politics, regulations, it is people!

i am 81 years old next week and i have worked since i was 12yr, carried groceries out, dug ditches, sold, manufactured, worked in union plant, marketed, run my own business, never have i seen the preponderance of sorry trifling young to middle age POTENTIAL workers.

i don't blame companies for moving plants out of the states

Bob

BOB WELL STATED Larry

 

[Joe Salt]

The thing I didn't like about Unions they protected the people that do absolutely nothing! And the seniority thing, I had guys with more time than me, but when they got in trouble the boss came and got me. I think the fare way is take a test! Best man goes to the top. Oh! on that press has anyone looked up the price? I Think its around $1000 not for me. I'll keep my A-4's

Joe Salt

 

[ShootDots]

Why should the conditions of my employment be anything other than an agreement between my employer and me? In this great but formerly greater country, I am free to not work for anyone that I so choose. An employer should also be free to not employ anyone that they so choose not to employ. Ain't that what liberty is about?

In ideal circumstances your assertion of "the agreement between you and your employer" would be correct. But because of "greed, ability to exploit, and generally unscrupulous business practices" can and do change "in mid-stream" can leave you in a MAJOR lurch. Example: you "agree" with your employer over the "conditions" of your employment and you go to work at 25 years old. All goes well UNTIL a "New C.E.O. or Owner" takes over and does NOT like "your arrangement" and changes it, to HIS benefit in mid-stream... However, "mid-stream" for you is 50 years old. You have kids in college, a mortgage, some 401K money and at an age where you are now "past the age" of hiring desirability.

So you want and NEED to make a change BUT at your age, you find, in THIS job market, you can only get about 50-60 percent of your previous salary. You see your hopes and dreams of a nice retirement and a GOOD job, in the "evening" of your work-life, evaporating right before your eyes! You now see retirement as an unattainable goal, at least not the retirement YOU envisioned a scant 1 year ago! To make matter worse, it was NOT your fault! Multiply that scenario 15 million times and you will see WHY people want unions! Had it not been for the "New C.E.O. / Owner" who wants to MAXIMIZE profits at YOUR (and vicariously everyone else's) expense, you would not be in this egregious situation!

If you do not believe this situation exists on a large scale, you are living with Alice in Wonderland! Just ask the Enron employee, who is 55 years old! This sort of thing will go on until the unions make another stand. They will and they will grow. It is a T-Totally unnecessary scenario. However, because of greed, "perceived power" or whatever other grandiose idea exists from the employer, this situation will continue. The EXCELLENT employers will get caught up in the malaise, and that, my friend, is very unfortunate..

 

[JRS]

Corporate greed has destroyed our country. Not union members, not non-union members. GE and Westinghouse were quite successful, making substantial profits, and realized their profits would be substantially more by moving production overseas. Our steel industry suffered due to the lower cost for steel provided by Japan, Korea and China. The only way they could survive would be to offer their employees comparable wages to those countries. A realistic evaluation and comparison for the wage difference between the CEO's in the U.S. vs all other industrialized countries tells the story. RCBS continues to offer quality products for the masses, for an affordable price. To do so, they have to outsource some of their components. Our auto industry can provide vehicles made with every component produced right here. Your $50,000.00 truck is now $70,000.00

 

[savagedasher]

If you have worked 25 years and not set aside some money for your retirement is that your employer fault or YOURS. The union feels it the employer and many other must feel the same. Never was it that way with me. I worked many of side jobs and extra hours and put that money in a retirement account. Was it enough NO
Nothing jerks me more then when a person cry's about loosing his job and has to take on with less pay. :'( :'( POOR BABY :'( :'( Take the one that pays less but keep looking. Larry

 

[fredo]

The thing I didn't like about Unions they protected the people that do absolutely nothing! And the seniority thing, I had guys with more time than me, but when they got in trouble the boss came and got me. I think the fare way is take a test! Best man goes to the top. Oh! on that press has anyone looked up the price? I Think its around $1000 not for me. I'll keep my A-4's

Joe Salt

Yep, the system is broke.

Remember this gem, UAW at its finest...
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB114118143005186163

Maybe THAT has something to do with over-paying for "American" vehicles???

 

[BigBlueandGoldie]

It's amazing how Japanese and European car manufacturers can make money assembling cars in the US, but the American car manufacturers can't. What's the difference between the two?..........oh that's right, the UAW has to have their hand in everything the American car manufacturers do.

My grandfather worked for GM on the assembly lines in Saginaw as a kid, made his living selling auto parts, and he'll tell you exactly what the UAW has done to the American manufacturers. And to put things in perspective, he was Ford's top seller of auto parts and Chrysler's second top seller west of the Mississippi, so he wasn't a small fish. If you ever bought an American made auto part from Auto Shack (now Autozone) or Checker up until the mid 70's it likely came through him. FWIW, he now buys primarily German cars due the quality issues related to American cars. Hell, he was glad to get out of Michigan where we still have family working for GM. It's sad

 

[JRS]

It's amazing how Japanese and European car manufacturers can make money assembling cars in the US, but the American car manufacturers can't. What's the difference between the two?..........oh that's right, the UAW has to have their hand in everything the American car manufacturers do.

My grandfather worked for GM on the assembly lines in Saginaw as a kid, made his living selling auto parts, and he'll tell you exactly what the UAW has done to the American manufacturers. And to put things in perspective, he was Ford's top seller of auto parts and Chrysler's second top seller west of the Mississippi, so he wasn't a small fish. If you ever bought an American made auto part from Auto Shack (now Autozone) or Checker up until the mid 70's it likely came through him. FWIW, he now buys primarily German cars due the quality issues related to American cars. Hell, he was glad to get out of Michigan where we still have family working for GM. It's sad

Really If they aren't making money, how do they remain in business? How are they able to pay the CEO 20+ million dollars per year? Get real :

Larry: $250.00 per day for picking tomatoes/oranges? Would it surprise you to realize the farm field workers work 42 hours per week, and average pay is $7.45 per hour. If they are lucky enough to secure permanent employment, after 6 years with the same employer, the pay goes up to $8.25 per hour. I don't know which country you live in that pays field farm workers that kind of money, but it certainly isn't the U.S.

 

[Barlow]

Absolutely, I agree. Shouldn't make a blanket accusation.

Point was, there is a pervasive 'union mentality' that has taken over...EVERYWHERE.

Hard work is no longer rewarded, and the lowest common denominator is what workers strive to achieve. IE, do as little work as possible, still make the same $$$ and reap the same benefits as your fellow hardworking employee.
The current union atmosphere allows that to happen, and actually protects it! And when that hardworking employee realizes that a slack-azz co-worker is getting the same wage as him/her, then the entire workforce becomes polluted...

Sadly, that is what happens in today's workforce. The notion of "do as little as possible to skate by, while padding your pockets with overtime & adding to your pension from incentives" is what I see that drives today's union labor force.

Take your Jefferson quote & apply it to unions & union labor. Same rules apply.

The Jefferson quote does not apply to labor. It clearly is directed at corporate greed, which was true in his time and also of ours. Most of the slackers that were around when I was working were usually relatives of the owner. Many held titles but were mostly in the way, but they all got paid. It's my belief that the workers of the WORLD, not just here should be represented by unions. I am talking about large and corporate businesses. Barlow

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I was born and raised in Michigan, dropped out of high school and got a job at the biggest Pontiac dealer in the world at the time. Every mechanic was making over 100k a year, business was great. Things took a turn and you couldnt make a decent living anymore. GM was in trouble, for every working employee there were 2 collection a full pension with ridiculous benefits. The unions killed Michigan, thank god its a right to work state now. If you are valuable to a company you dont need a union. Unions had their place 100 years ago when guys got their arms chopped off in presses, and got kick out the door. All an employer owes you is your paycheck. I think we have some closet socialists in our midst.