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Is FFP the new 6.5 Creed?

25 years ago I bought my first Nighforce scope and the Leupold guys frowned at me. Now look where we are.

6.5 CM has taken the wind out of the 308W's sails. I'm a 6.5x47 guy but the Creedmore has a much stronger foothold on that market. Less recoil and a better BC bullet makes for an enjoyable experience.

Since around 2010, all the guys I shoot with, except the true Benchrest guys, use FFP.

When I go out and want to hit the steel target range, with targets from 200-1000 yards, its definitely FFP. I still have my old SFP Nighforce but a majority of the time it is relegated to 100 yard shooting.
 
Different tools for different jobs.

And why i have an EO-Tech on the SHTF Rock River Delta mid.

I did try working with FFP's a few years back but, having lived with
SFP's for all my life, the FFP's to me were just a solution to a non
existent problem. Yeah, when your trying to see a small target to
be precise on, A reticle that looks like 2 crossed railroad ties, just
did'nt get it. For my shooting from 100 to 1000 yards, SFP scopes
are on all my rifle's but one, and that's the EO-Tech......
 
I wanted to do some ammo testing at 50 and 100 yards with my iron sighted CZ LUX 22 LR. I got out a scope I had bought 48 years ago, used for a few years and then stowed away for all this time. It is branded...well I don’t remember right now but it’s a made-in-Japan fixed 4X 32mm objective, 1 inch tube simple thin crosshair scope and it is a surprisingly good scope. Bright, clear, sharp. It’s kind of funny but I am really enjoying this no frills, back to basics kind of shooting!
 
I have plenty of SFP scopes, grew up using them. However when it comes to long range, dialing turrets I wouldn’t have anything but a FFP. I shoot mils but it’s doesn’t matter if it’s MOA or Mils, learn the system and go. I also have reticles in my spotting scopes.
 
Life is too short to worry if your favorites match up with the other guy's.

It is okay to take a serious look at something that someone else selected, and then decide it isn't for you after a careful study... but then why get all wrapped up about them taking a different path?

Many of us use both SFP, FFP, MOA or MILS just based on the task of the day. I am happier when I have the choice. When I don't have a choice, I use what I got.

It is useful to explore the pros and cons of different optics and reticles. But getting into a mode where my choice is the best and the other guy's must be wrong isn't useful and probably bad for the soul.

If the choice boils down to scrubbing events because nobody has ammo, or having the events and a bunch of folks show up with their Creedmoors, which outcome would we rather have?

I would rather see folks become humble champions and demonstrate their skills, than listen to them criticize the Creedmoor. (But nobody should care what I think, they should think for themselves.)

I will suggest you let that go, always keep an open mind and an eye on alternate technology, and spend more time living your own life and being happy because life can be short.... YMMV
 
Life is too short to worry if your favorites match up with the other guy's.

It is okay to take a serious look at something that someone else selected, and then decide it isn't for you after a careful study... but then why get all wrapped up about them taking a different path?

Many of us use both SFP, FFP, MOA or MILS just based on the task of the day. I am happier when I have the choice. When I don't have a choice, I use what I got.

It is useful to explore the pros and cons of different optics and reticles. But getting into a mode where my choice is the best and the other guy's must be wrong isn't useful and probably bad for the soul.

If the choice boils down to scrubbing events because nobody has ammo, or having the events and a bunch of folks show up with their Creedmoors, which outcome would we rather have?

I would rather see folks become humble champions and demonstrate their skills, than listen to them criticize the Creedmoor. (But nobody should care what I think, they should think for themselves.)

I will suggest you let that go, always keep an open mind and an eye on alternate technology, and spend more time living your own life and being happy because life can be short.... YMMV
That was perfect. Politely nailed it in my opinion.

I often wonder if many on here realize there’s more to shooting than a sanctioned event from a bench at a range.
 
FFP is good for ranging quickly while hunting or competitions that are only dinging steel targets like PRS. So they have their place

For high precision shooting competitions where the distance is known and the group size and score determines the winner, SFP is the only way to go.

The reason FFP seem to dominate new scope models from manufacturers is because disciplines like PRS have way more shooters than benchrest and F-class. Not even close. So if those guys want FFP, thats what they're gonna get. PRS and it's subsidies has left every other shooting discipline in the dust. Manufacturers gotta build the product that will bring in the most profit.

I personally do not currently own or use FFP scopes. I have had them in the past. My gripe with them is all the "trash" in the reticle. I prefer a nice clean and clear picture of the surrounding area of my aiming point. So I prefere SFP and dialing turrets.

A person can range unknown distances exactly the same with a SFP scope reticle as you do with a FFP scope, but I don't think most new shooters understand that.
SFP scopes can do everything FFP scopes can, but FFP scopes can NOT do what SFP can. FFP reticles are way too small and unusable on the lowest power settings, and way too big to aim small on max power or long range. SFP is better for precision aiming at any distance and can still range targets with a reticle. So for me, it will always be SFP scopes on my rifles
 
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FFP is not about ranging. It's about using the reticle for holds. All that "trash" is the part that allows you to accurately hit a target when using the reticle for holds. SFP can not do everything a FFP can do in that you can not change the power and make a hold as the subtension of the reticle is not correct. In SFP it is only correct on one power. You can half and double that power and finagle a way to double or half you actual hold but that takes time and you need to be on those exact powers to do that.

The reticle on a FFP stays the same size in relation to the target on it's lowest power as it does at it's highest. It covers no more of the target at it's highest. It comes down to reticle design. My scopes have a dot in the center that is .03 mils or .1 moa so at 1000 yards it covers a little over an inch. Not overly large or covering too much. I have used my scopes to shoot and hit a 12" steel at a mile.

I don't care what anyone uses for their game of choice as I have used both over decades but the right info needs to get out for people wanting to learn about both types.
 
In SFP it is only correct on one power. You can half and double that power and finagle a way to double or half you actual hold but that takes time and you need to be on those exact powers to do that.
I have a SFP scope in which the reticle is sized to be "on" at 16X. I spent some time at a known distance and an object of known size and found the exact half-way point. I placed a small white dot at that position on the variable power ring. And it's not at exactly 8X. Just have to remember that, for example, a 2 MOA hold over is actually 4.

People have said that with FFP on high magnification the reticle is too fat and coveres too much of the target. I have not found this to be true for me and my shooting. I have found the opposite; with SFP on low power the reticle does cover a lot of the target and it can be difficult to pick out a precise aiming point on a small target.
 
I have a SFP scope in which the reticle is sized to be "on" at 16X. I spent some time at a known distance and an object of known size and found the exact half-way point. I placed a small white dot at that position on the variable power ring. And it's not at exactly 8X. Just have to remember that, for example, a 2 MOA hold over is actually 4.

People have said that with FFP on high magnification the reticle is too fat and coveres too much of the target. I have not found this to be true for me and my shooting. I have found the opposite; with SFP on low power the reticle does cover a lot of the target and it can be difficult to pick out a precise aiming point on a small target.
Yes, I agree. The modern FFP reticles are much better than they were long ago.

If anything, in a wide variable, the center of the reticle nearly disappears at very low power against some natural backgrounds. Illumination can help with that issue.
 
FFP is not about ranging. It's about using the reticle for holds. All that "trash" is the part that allows you to accurately hit a target when using the reticle for holds. SFP can not do everything a FFP can do in that you can not change the power and make a hold as the subtension of the reticle is not correct. In SFP it is only correct on one power. You can half and double that power and finagle a way to double or half you actual hold but that takes time and you need to be on those exact powers to do that.

The reticle on a FFP stays the same size in relation to the target on it's lowest power as it does at it's highest. It covers no more of the target at it's highest. It comes down to reticle design. My scopes have a dot in the center that is .03 mils or .1 moa so at 1000 yards it covers a little over an inch. Not overly large or covering too much. I have used my scopes to shoot and hit a 12" steel at a mile.

I don't care what anyone uses for their game of choice as I have used both over decades but the right info needs to get out for people wanting to learn about both types.
The FFP was designed for ranging and accurate hold overs on targets by the military. So yes it is used for holdovers as well, but it doesn't matter what you use it for or what you think it's used for, it was originally designed for ranging human sized targets as well.

So I have to take 2 whole seconds to turn my SFP scope to a certain power to get an accurate range or holdover. What real world situations are you shooting in, outside of a very limited amount of certain competitions, where that extra 2 seconds to change magnification is gonna make a difference? But even in competitions with targets at unknown ranges and LRFs were not allowed, a smart person would leave a SFP scope on the designated power before engaging a target for holdover or ranging. Then it wouldn't take any extra time to achieve the same result with a SFP as it would a FFP scope.

And now for example, lets say you have a 5-25x scope with FFP reticle which is sized to .1 MOA...Being completely honest, how usable is that reticle on 5x? You can't even see the hash marks! It's just a blob of crap in the middle of the view. Totally useless except for aiming in the general direction of the target.

However, there are some variable power FFP scopes, sticking with the 5-25x example again, that aren't too bad with the FFP reticle on lower power settings. Unfortunately to do that, your reticle now gets so big on max power, you lose 1/3 to maybe even1/2 of the holdover capability on the reticle because its stretched out beyond than the FOV. So you have a 5-25x scope that can kind if range on 5x, but can only still give full reticle values up to 20x or so.

To each their own and I have nothing against people who prefer FFP scopes. But in reality, there really is not anything advantageous about a FFP scope. FFP costs more money, reticle are not as usable throughout the full variable power range, and most ffp scopes can never aim as small with maximum magnification at long range. These are the facts. I've used them both and know the differences. Use what you like, but don't try to BS people into believing a FFP scope offers more advantages because that is a lie.

Even the so-called "advantage" of being able to range on any power is a LIE because you can't range anything with most FFP reticles on their lowest power settings. At least I can see my full SFP reticle on base power and do the math for ranging and holdovers. So chalk that up as another win for SFP in my book.
 
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The FFP was designed for ranging targets by the military. Yes it is used for holdovers as well. Doesn't matter what you use it for or what you think it's used for, it was originally designed for ranging human sized targets.

So I have to take 2 whole seconds to turn my SFP scope to a certain power to get an accurate range or holdover. What real world situations are you shooting in, outside of a very limited amount of certain competitions, where that extra 2 seconds to change magnification is gonna make a difference? But even in competitions with targets at unknown ranges and LRFs were not allowed, a smart person would leave a SFP scope on the designated power before engaging a target for holdover or ranging. Then it wouldn't take any extra time to achieve the same result with a SFP as it would a FFP scope.

And now for example, lets say you have a 5-25x scope with FFP reticle which is sized to .1 MOA...Being completely honest, how usable is that reticle on 5x? You can't even see the hash marks! It's just a blob of crap in the middle of the view.

To each their own and I have nothing against people who prefer FFP scopes. But in reality, there really is not anything advantageous about a FFP scope. FFP costs more money, reticle are not as usable throughout the full variable power range, and most ffp scopes can never aim as small with maximum magnification at long range. These are the facts. I've used them both and know the differences. Use what you like, but don't try to BS people into believing a FFP scope offers more advantages because that is a lie.

Even the so-called "advantage" of being able to range on any power is a LIE because you can't range anything with most FFP reticles on their lowest power settings. At least I can see my full SFP reticle on base power and do the math for ranging and holdovers. So chalk that up as another win for SFP in my book.

Not going to argue the points for post after post with you as ranging now is not the reason to use FFP nor is it really used for that. The military doesn't even use it and use lasers like everyone else. Ranging with a reticle is a dying skill set. FFP is to use the reticle without having to turn it to that magic power, usually the highest which might be too high and cause unusable target image for mirage or too small of a FOV. Then you need a wider FOV and have to dial down. Then what? Fine with a FFP. Not with a SFP.

On 5x you turn the illumination on and it's the same as a duplex reticle so you are no worse off than using a SFP and if on 5x then your target is probably very close so no need for holds That said if you buy a 5-25 to use it mostly on 5x then you bought the wrong scope. Also you don't range at the lowest power anyways and it wouldn't work with a SFP either so a moot point.

And I proved that FFP can aim that small with the reticle I posted about. Is 1" at 1000 yards not small enough? Don't need an answer so don't bother.

Again use what you want but you are talking down something you really should give more of a shot to use and learn. I have a lot of friends whop are hunters and use FFP very efficiently. It's about training. I'm not BSing anyone but giving the whole story.
 
I have a SFP scope in which the reticle is sized to be "on" at 16X. I spent some time at a known distance and an object of known size and found the exact half-way point. I placed a small white dot at that position on the variable power ring. And it's not at exactly 8X. Just have to remember that, for example, a 2 MOA hold over is actually 4.

People have said that with FFP on high magnification the reticle is too fat and coveres too much of the target. I have not found this to be true for me and my shooting. I have found the opposite; with SFP on low power the reticle does cover a lot of the target and it can be difficult to pick out a precise aiming point on a small target.

Yup that is what you have to do with SFP. Did it years ago and yes the numbers on the dial are not 100% correct. You should set up a tall target at 100 yards and figure out the exact spot as you did.

Those people who say that do not understand FFP. It covers the same amount of the target through the whole power setting as the target and reticle grow at the same rate. And that is correct that SFP does cover different amounts of targets through their power range.
 

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