Is a bench rest style action (square tang/ flat bottom) required to be competitive / have accuracy?

[Ned Ludd]

I'll add to the discussion that a stock specifically designed to fit an action with a deep square tang may also have dimensional differences such as in the diameter/circumference of the pistol grip as compared with a similar model designed for a Rem 700 footprint. Such differences can change the relative position of the trigger shoe to the hand and trigger finger. Although it may seem trivial, this can actually make a big difference in how the rifle feels and shoots in a given individual's hands. Just be certain the combination of stock/action that you choose works (i.e. "fits") in your hands. If it doesn't, you may never be able to shoot it up to its potential.

 

[Bodhisafa]

What are you building? If br or f class, the stocks will be designed for square tang actions. If field or tactical they will be designed for remington tangs. The main thing is you get the action that will fit the stock.

Definitely more belly / bench style shooting

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Just bite the bullet. Build it specificly for the task and resale value will be high if its not for you. Build an odd ball and it will cost more in the end. Jmo

 

[AlNyhus]

Definitely more belly / bench style shooting

Do you have a stock in mind? If so, make sure it's available or can accomodate inletting for the action you want. Obviously, the 700 foot prints open more doors...but don't let that drive your decision re: the stock. -Al

 

[Dave Zander]

I don’t shoot benchrest but shoot steel plates out to 1000 yards. I have the Kelbly Black Bear in 6 BRA. It is a flat bottom . Several guys I shoot with have the Atlas action and do very well with them , some in 6 BRA also. Most guys run chassis like XLR’s, MPA . The Atlas and Black Bear actions in 6Bra can produce one hole groups at 100 yards with proper tuning. It’s more the shooter, load tuning and wind reading. The Atlas is capable . At 1000 our smallest target is 4” x 6”. I use a Kreiger 28” barrel with 105 Berger’s. Kelbly’s quality and service is very good. The Atlas gives you a lot more options for stocks/ chassis vs the flat bottom

 

[Infrequent Shooter]

Looking for real world experience / testing wether a action that is not designed designed for bench rest shooting (a single shot but more along the lines of 700 foot print) can perform as well as one designed for bench rest / f open

Carefully reading every word in these replies.

 

[JEFFPPC]

The definition of a good Indian shooting bad arrows: Vegetarian

Good shootin' -Al

Lol, yeah I hate leaving shoots eating kale with no steak in sight.

 

[AlNyhus]

Keep in mind that the 700/40X actions were the standard for accuracy for a long, long time. From a purely mechanical standpoint, they'll still do the job today.

Custom actions give us a lot of options that are desirable from a convince or ease of use aspect.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[HTSmith]

You've gotten great info from folks miles ahead of me. I'll just say that a trigger hanger is a wonderful thing.

 

[AlNyhus]

I'm going to circle back around, keeping a budget in mind.

This is a new Mack Bros. 700 foot print action that I got a few days ago. It's a pretty unique action in a lot of areas. It's a single shot, has a 1 bolt trigger hanger, a .250 thick indexed lug, a fluted nitrided 700 style bolt, .068 pin diameter, .070 pin hole in the bolt face, a long M16 style extractor, plunger ejector and a bayonet style firing pin removal system. The pin spring is short with fat coils which makes the bolt effort seem a bit more than it really is. Pin spring checks right at 21-22 lbs. break away. Pin fall is .250, pin protrussion is .050. The cocking piece is threaded on the pin shaft and retained with two set screws. The cocking piece doesn't bottom out in the cocking cam helix on the bolt and it's profiled nicely for opening effort. The cocking piece fits the shroud very well and it travels smoothly and is well clearanced with no trace of 'BAT Bind'. As you can see, the ejection/loading port has been lengthened from the standard short 700. Bolt release is on the left side.

Raceway diameter is .700 along the entire length. Bolt diameter is .6962-.6963, depending on how I hold my tongue when measuring it. Even when retracted all the way rearward, the bolt slides forward very smoothly...no hiccups or catches in the travel. The bolt handle is a bit quirky looking but it's growing on me. I understand that the handle is being changed to more of a straight-ish handle at some point. Base screws are 8-40's on the common .862 c-c dimension front and rear. It comes with a very nice true Picatinny spec. 20 MOA rail.

With an unmodified and known good Shilen Competition 2oz. trigger mounted to the hanger, there was very minimal cock on close. Again, it seems a bit more than it actually measures, due to the short/fat coiled spring.

I'm going to add another action screw toward the center so the tang can be floated rear of the bolt notch. At this point, I'm leaning toward a plain vanilla no-turn 6BR for chambering to evaluate how it performs.

Again, just throwing this out there for consideration. Not great pics...just grabbed some with my cell phone.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[LVLAaron]

Certainly an interesting recoil lug design.

 

[Bodhisafa]

I'm going to circle back around, keeping a budget in mind.

This is a new Mack Bros. 700 foot print action that I got a few days ago. It's a pretty unique action in a lot of areas. It's a single shot, has a 1 bolt trigger hanger, a .250 thick indexed lug, a fluted nitrided 700 style bolt, .068 pin diameter, .070 pin hole in the bolt face, a long M16 style extractor, plunger ejector and a bayonet style firing pin removal system. The pin spring is short with fat coils which makes the bolt effort seem a bit more than it really is. Pin spring checks right at 21-22 lbs. break away. Pin fall is .250, pin protrussion is .050. The cocking piece is threaded on the pin shaft and retained with two set screws. The cocking piece doesn't bottom out in the cocking cam helix on the bolt and it's profiled nicely for opening effort. The cocking piece fits the shroud very well and it travels smoothly and is well clearanced with no trace of 'BAT Bind'. As you can see, the ejection/loading port has been lengthened from the standard short 700. Bolt release is on the left side.

Raceway diameter is .700 along the entire length. Bolt diameter is .6962-.6963, depending on how I hold my tongue when measuring it. Even when retracted all the way rearward, the bolt slides forward very smoothly...no hiccups or catches in the travel. The bolt handle is a bit quirky looking but it's growing on me. I understand that the handle is being changed to more of a straight-ish handle at some point. Base screws are 8-40's on the common .862 c-c dimension front and rear. It comes with a very nice true Picatinny spec. 20 MOA rail.

With an unmodified and known good Shilen Competition 2oz. trigger mounted to the hanger, there was very minimal cock on close. Again, it seems a bit more than it actually measures, due to the short/fat coiled spring.

I'm going to add another action screw toward the center so the tang can be floated rear of the bolt notch. At this point, I'm leaning toward a plain vanilla no-turn 6BR for chambering to evaluate how it performs.

Again, just throwing this out there for consideration. Not great pics...just grabbed some with my cell phone.

Good shootin' -Al

Has anyone evaluated the ignition system of this design?

 

[davidjoe]

I bought a nice McMillan stock from a member here for my Mark V .338 LM.

I never really realized it, but Roy Weatherby also got about three times as many action screw threads engaging the milled lug, this way.




The legitimate debate about how much machine work to put into parts is very old. Square actions may waste billet steel at 5 times their finished weight from what I’ve read and cannot originate from bar stock.

This a perfect example of waste, below. The Garand’s milled trigger guard started from a block of steel, to end up with 1/20th of the block’s weight. It slowed production down dramatically, versus slamming a strip of steel in a press. They are both legitimate original parts of this most important of rifles, but man, some 90 years later when it truthfully doesn’t matter one iota, it matters !



Everyone is of course completely correct that round actions are capable of working equally well, and bedding should usually eliminate the possibilities of insufficient contact.

But at the same time, there isn’t really a market for truing up any of the square actions. I haven’t heard of anyone needing to true up square actions. In fairness I haven’t heard of anyone trying to improve high end round actions, either.

But the point is, squared actions are seemingly either cut more precisely to begin with because they are going to be more expensive and held to a higher standard, or, they are perhaps equally untrue but harder to correct, because of their shape. I don’t know, I just observe that there is not a market for correcting/truing up/blue printing square actions that I’m aware of.

 

[AlNyhus]

Has anyone evaluated the ignition system of this design?

All I can say is I don't see any issues from a mechanical or measurement stand point. There are several of these actions in my area that have been made up into very accurate rigs on the repeater versions of this action. Accuracy is on par with what would be expected and none have had a bit of problems, ignition or other wise. Mack Bros. has been making private label actions for several firms under different names for a while now. The bolt used in this action is actually one they make as a replacement for standard 700 actions.

Lots of mechanical camming for extraction, a look at the extractor, the bolt/pin assy. and a comparison to my Pand-iak for what it's worth.

Good shootin'. -Al

 

[LVLAaron]

For 775 that looks like a steal.

 

[skeeljc]

I'm going to circle back around, keeping a budget in mind.

This is a new Mack Bros. 700 foot print action that I got a few days ago. It's a pretty unique action in a lot of areas. It's a single shot, has a 1 bolt trigger hanger, a .250 thick indexed lug, a fluted nitrided 700 style bolt, .068 pin diameter, .070 pin hole in the bolt face, a long M16 style extractor, plunger ejector and a bayonet style firing pin removal system. The pin spring is short with fat coils which makes the bolt effort seem a bit more than it really is. Pin spring checks right at 21-22 lbs. break away. Pin fall is .250, pin protrussion is .050. The cocking piece is threaded on the pin shaft and retained with two set screws. The cocking piece doesn't bottom out in the cocking cam helix on the bolt and it's profiled nicely for opening effort. The cocking piece fits the shroud very well and it travels smoothly and is well clearanced with no trace of 'BAT Bind'. As you can see, the ejection/loading port has been lengthened from the standard short 700. Bolt release is on the left side.

Raceway diameter is .700 along the entire length. Bolt diameter is .6962-.6963, depending on how I hold my tongue when measuring it. Even when retracted all the way rearward, the bolt slides forward very smoothly...no hiccups or catches in the travel. The bolt handle is a bit quirky looking but it's growing on me. I understand that the handle is being changed to more of a straight-ish handle at some point. Base screws are 8-40's on the common .862 c-c dimension front and rear. It comes with a very nice true Picatinny spec. 20 MOA rail.

With an unmodified and known good Shilen Competition 2oz. trigger mounted to the hanger, there was very minimal cock on close. Again, it seems a bit more than it actually measures, due to the short/fat coiled spring.

I'm going to add another action screw toward the center so the tang can be floated rear of the bolt notch. At this point, I'm leaning toward a plain vanilla no-turn 6BR for chambering to evaluate how it performs.

Again, just throwing this out there for consideration. Not great pics...just grabbed some with my cell phone.

Good shootin' -Al

Is the SS action a special order? I only see repeaters on the website.

 

[LVLAaron]

EVO II Stainless Steel Single Shot Action | Mack Brothers

The Mack Brothers EVO II Stainless Steel Single Shot Action is only offered in a short action with the option of bolt face: standard, magnum, or .223.

macbros.com

 

[tmwinds]

Forced to choose a 700 footprint action, the single shot Atlas is the box I'd check. You're stuck with a R/R/ config. but if that works for you, you're good. Ignition and bolt are the same as the Pandas...and that's a good thing. Coned or flat bolts are available and the coned bolt options is what you want for flawless feeding.

With the trigger hanger and standard Rem 700 rear tang, you can't fit much of a rear pillar back there. But since the single shot Atlas actions come with a center action screw, the better approach is to simply float the tang area rearward from the back of the bolt handle notch. A threaded insert where the rear pillar would be in the stock can be used to attach the ADL style trigger guard.

Like so:

If you go with an Atlas, get the .173" thick Panda spacer too. This lets any of the standard 1.115" Panda headspace barrels go right on the Atlas with the .250" recoil lug. Makes barrel changes easy peasy.

Hope this helps. -Al

Someone needs to take a long handled garden hoe to that stock.

 

[AlNyhus]

The action shown on their site shows a more open top and a straighter handle.

 

[Bodhisafa]

Well went ahead and ordered a F panda. Wondering “what if” would keep me wondering .