Is 30-06 obsolete or less accurate than .308? Why?
- Thread starter mparsons911
- Start date
Laurie, that was quite a find! Interesting that you should mention the .318 NE as I was just reading about it this morning in "Ken Waters' Notebook" an excellent collection of Mr. Waters' correspondence.
The M1 bullet was, of course, the predecessor of the Frankford Arsenal and Lake City match bullet; it is indeed a hard and thick jacket and the bearing surface is a bit longer than similar weight commercial bullets. The later 173 match bullets from Lake City had a thinner jacket. I found in conducting pressure testing that the SD of pressure was always very high with these bullets which made them useless for my primer pressure tests. They aren't a bad bullet but, as you know, we've come a long way.
You'll be very pleased with the 6XC, it really does everything well and is not too hard on barrels either.
The M1 bullet was, of course, the predecessor of the Frankford Arsenal and Lake City match bullet; it is indeed a hard and thick jacket and the bearing surface is a bit longer than similar weight commercial bullets. The later 173 match bullets from Lake City had a thinner jacket. I found in conducting pressure testing that the SD of pressure was always very high with these bullets which made them useless for my primer pressure tests. They aren't a bad bullet but, as you know, we've come a long way.
You'll be very pleased with the 6XC, it really does everything well and is not too hard on barrels either.
German,
Craig Boddington says very flattering things about its performance on heavy plains game in his book 'Safari Rifles' and a shooting acquaintance who goes to South Africa, Zimbabwe and suchlike to shoot cape buffalo tells me .318 rifles are still to be found usually fed with carefully hoarded and ancient ammo.
Looking at the cartridge alongside the .30-06, the cases are so similar it can't be coincidence. It has to be a necked-up .30-06, an early .35 Whelen Lite, but with a very long high-SD bullet. At only 2,400 fps or so MV it must have been very well suited to the cup & core bullet construction technology of the period, and shape wise the bullets are like scaled-up 155gn RNSP 6.5s. Cartridges like this hold some sort of inexplicable fascination for me.
Kynamco loads the cartridge again, so modern ammunition is available for any old rifle in the calibre:
http://www.new-kynoch.apt-sites.com/cartridge%20range.htm#
Laurie
German, what is this 70 degree stuff? Yesterday I was wrapped in sub-arctic gear shooting cast bullets at 50 yds out of a Ruger .308 Target rifle. Wind chill of 4 F. Stopped when I couldn`t feel the trigger. Beats hibernating in a cave.
Laurie, I actually wanted the 7wsm but Savage did not chamber the 12FVSS in that cartridge, only the .270wsm and .300wsm. So I bought the .300wsm. Now Savage has discontinued both wsms in that rifle.
An F Class friend had a rifle made up in 6.5/270wsm last Summer. Had a reamer cut by Pacific on his spec. He didn`t shoot it enough last year to measure performance . This Summer will tell the tale.
The Quebec F Class shooters were really hot at the 2009 Canadian Fullbore Champs. They were all talking about building .284 Win rifles over the Winter. Don`t know what throating. They seem to prefer Krieger barrels.
Laurie, I actually wanted the 7wsm but Savage did not chamber the 12FVSS in that cartridge, only the .270wsm and .300wsm. So I bought the .300wsm. Now Savage has discontinued both wsms in that rifle.
An F Class friend had a rifle made up in 6.5/270wsm last Summer. Had a reamer cut by Pacific on his spec. He didn`t shoot it enough last year to measure performance . This Summer will tell the tale.
The Quebec F Class shooters were really hot at the 2009 Canadian Fullbore Champs. They were all talking about building .284 Win rifles over the Winter. Don`t know what throating. They seem to prefer Krieger barrels.
1K, 70 degrees and more! Come on down heck, half of Canada winters here and we love having them. Save the involuntary cryogenics for later, enjoy the warm desert air now!
Something that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is the .30-06 Ackley Improved. Now, I have often said that the .30-06 can be modified, but it can't be improved and I'll stick to that. Rather than just be a smart aleck about it, though, I decided to have a look at Ackley's book, the Sierra manual and my own pressure testing data.
Ackley said the .30-06 AI was a good cartridge and particularly good with the 180 grain bullets. He quotes a maximum load of 61 gr. of 4350 for an MV of 3053 fps. Unfortunately, Ackley didn't specify a barrel length and he didn't give loads for the 180 in his load data for the standard .30-06 so it's awfully tough to compare one to the other on an equal basis with his data. I strongly urge you to avoid using this data.
Sierra's data is a bit more useful and reliable; their data for both cartridges is reported from 26" barrels and for a broader range of bullets.
For the AI, Sierra quotes a maximum velocity of 2900 fps with the 180 using 58.0 of IMR 4350 and 2800 fps with 57.2 of H4350, both are maximum pressure. With the standard .30-06, Sierra shows 2800 fps with IMR 4350 (55.3 gr.) and 2700 fps with H4350 (53.6 gr.). So, Sierra finds the AI to be worth 100 fps with the 180 over the standard .30-06 and IMR 4350 to be worth 100 fps over H4350.
Frankly, I have a lot more confidence in Sierra's pressure testing and data than in Ackley's; they have better equipment and no axe to grind. Furthermore, powders have changed since Ackley's day his data should not be taken at face value today.
With the 190, which I prefer (and which Ackley didn't test) Sierra shows 2850 fps with 57.4 IMR 4350 in the AI versus 2700 fps with 53.1 of IMR 4350 in the standard .30-06. So, while Ackley thought the 180 was where the AI paid off, Sierra shows a bigger "payoff" with the 190 - an extra 150 fps with 4.3 gr. of extra powder.
In my own pressure and velocity testing, with a moly-coated 190 in a 28" barrel, I got a maximum velocity of 2819 fps (59,300 psi) with 54.0 H4350 (note that Sierra alsways shows H4350 about 100 fps slower than IMR 4350).
I have usually found that moly-coating allows one more grain of powder in the .30-06 over bare bullets, and in this case, comparing my data to Sierra's, that's exactly correct. We can also see that my barrel is developing 120 fps more than Sierra, some of it is due to the 2" extra length, but probably only about 30 to 40 fps, the remaining 80 to 90 fps gain is either from the moly, the barrel differences, powder lot differences or some combination of these.
In any event, I know that both Sierra and I stop at 60,000 psi which is the SAAMI maximum allowable average pressure for the .30-06 (old data in cup will show about 50,000 cup as max, that's roughly the same, see: http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf ).
If Sierra's experience of 100 fps more with IMR 4350 over H4350 holds, I should get just over 2900 with IMR - I have some on hand that I recently picked up at Bruno's and will try it sometime soon. Even if IMR doesn't give that much more MV, I have essentially the same MV from a standard .30-06 as Sierra has for the AI. My barrel is 2 inches longer than Sierra's but I'd rather have a longer barrel than having to fireform brass, deal with potential chamber vs. die incompatibility, and use more powder to get to essentially the same place. Of course, the AI would pick up some velocity with a 28" barrel, but I think we can see that the real-life difference is small and really not worth the effort and expense. You'll never see the difference in wind drift.
So I might as well say it again: the .30-06 can be modified, but it can't be improved. I would really like to hear from anyone who shoots a .30-06 AI, however. It would be especially interesting if the AI was a rechamber job in the same barrel that was previously a standard .30-06.
Something that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is the .30-06 Ackley Improved. Now, I have often said that the .30-06 can be modified, but it can't be improved and I'll stick to that. Rather than just be a smart aleck about it, though, I decided to have a look at Ackley's book, the Sierra manual and my own pressure testing data.
Ackley said the .30-06 AI was a good cartridge and particularly good with the 180 grain bullets. He quotes a maximum load of 61 gr. of 4350 for an MV of 3053 fps. Unfortunately, Ackley didn't specify a barrel length and he didn't give loads for the 180 in his load data for the standard .30-06 so it's awfully tough to compare one to the other on an equal basis with his data. I strongly urge you to avoid using this data.
Sierra's data is a bit more useful and reliable; their data for both cartridges is reported from 26" barrels and for a broader range of bullets.
For the AI, Sierra quotes a maximum velocity of 2900 fps with the 180 using 58.0 of IMR 4350 and 2800 fps with 57.2 of H4350, both are maximum pressure. With the standard .30-06, Sierra shows 2800 fps with IMR 4350 (55.3 gr.) and 2700 fps with H4350 (53.6 gr.). So, Sierra finds the AI to be worth 100 fps with the 180 over the standard .30-06 and IMR 4350 to be worth 100 fps over H4350.
Frankly, I have a lot more confidence in Sierra's pressure testing and data than in Ackley's; they have better equipment and no axe to grind. Furthermore, powders have changed since Ackley's day his data should not be taken at face value today.
With the 190, which I prefer (and which Ackley didn't test) Sierra shows 2850 fps with 57.4 IMR 4350 in the AI versus 2700 fps with 53.1 of IMR 4350 in the standard .30-06. So, while Ackley thought the 180 was where the AI paid off, Sierra shows a bigger "payoff" with the 190 - an extra 150 fps with 4.3 gr. of extra powder.
In my own pressure and velocity testing, with a moly-coated 190 in a 28" barrel, I got a maximum velocity of 2819 fps (59,300 psi) with 54.0 H4350 (note that Sierra alsways shows H4350 about 100 fps slower than IMR 4350).
I have usually found that moly-coating allows one more grain of powder in the .30-06 over bare bullets, and in this case, comparing my data to Sierra's, that's exactly correct. We can also see that my barrel is developing 120 fps more than Sierra, some of it is due to the 2" extra length, but probably only about 30 to 40 fps, the remaining 80 to 90 fps gain is either from the moly, the barrel differences, powder lot differences or some combination of these.
In any event, I know that both Sierra and I stop at 60,000 psi which is the SAAMI maximum allowable average pressure for the .30-06 (old data in cup will show about 50,000 cup as max, that's roughly the same, see: http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf ).
If Sierra's experience of 100 fps more with IMR 4350 over H4350 holds, I should get just over 2900 with IMR - I have some on hand that I recently picked up at Bruno's and will try it sometime soon. Even if IMR doesn't give that much more MV, I have essentially the same MV from a standard .30-06 as Sierra has for the AI. My barrel is 2 inches longer than Sierra's but I'd rather have a longer barrel than having to fireform brass, deal with potential chamber vs. die incompatibility, and use more powder to get to essentially the same place. Of course, the AI would pick up some velocity with a 28" barrel, but I think we can see that the real-life difference is small and really not worth the effort and expense. You'll never see the difference in wind drift.
So I might as well say it again: the .30-06 can be modified, but it can't be improved. I would really like to hear from anyone who shoots a .30-06 AI, however. It would be especially interesting if the AI was a rechamber job in the same barrel that was previously a standard .30-06.
I've been following this discussion since it began and wanted to add some comments from a laymans perspective. I was introduced to the .30/06 by my Uncle, more than 50 years ago. He was a WW-2 Pacific Theater veteran. He had an 03A3 Springfield as well as his second love, (his Wife being first 
) an M-1 Garand. I learned centerfire medium range shooting with a combination of those two rifles. The M-1 was not the "D" version but was setup in a similar manner. We killed many West Virginia Groundhogs, making ridge to ridge shots that were considered nonsense by anyone, outside the family that would listen to our tales 
. My Uncle loved to hunt, shoot, was a prolific handloader and tough as a boot! He was crippled in his legs, using 2 canes to balance himself as he dragged his feet behind him as he moved. When hunting. My Uncle would, leave one cane and use the M-1 as a substitute. He would 4X4 into a remote point where he could gather himself and his rifle, with a thermos of coffee and some grub and wait for the critters to show themselves. He accounted for many whitetail deer in this manner. When the weather was bad, he would still go out to hunt along with his nephews and stay close to the Scout, while we would try to push the deer to him for a shot.
Through his instruction, I was able to avoid the "M-1 Thumb", during I.T.R., at Camp Lejune many moons ago. The .30/06 and the M-1 Garand have a soft spot in my heart (head
), based on those experiences.
Presently I have a .30'06 with a SAAMI spec chamber, built on a Pre-64 M-70 with an H-S Precision heavy fluted barrel, in a McMillan Marksman stock. It will out shoot me. It is a heavy handfull that has taken Mule Deer and Antelope at extended distances. Mostly, however, it punches holes in paper. I've been playing around with different optics and havent setteled on the perfect combination for this "riflegun". If I were limited to only one rifle, the .30'06 would not be a hinderance in any form of sport in which I would desire to compete.
The new propellants that are coming available really open up the doors for enhanced performance in these older cartridges. .300 H&H magnum performance is reachable in the standard '06. That is a considerable jump, without going to the WSM and RSUM family of rounds, with a long barrel life to boot! Having a reamer made with closer than the MG tolerances standardized by SAAMI would do much to inhance any perceived accuracy issues, given a match grade barrel and proper setup. Remember, this round was a machinegun round as well as an infantry rifle round and was often used interchangably.
I have also used the civilian .308 and the 7.62 NATO, M-14. I like both rounds and given tight tolerances and quality components, both are capable of some amazing accuracy. I have been working on a .308 for a couple of years. Hopefully my amature gunsmithing abilities will be vindicated in this project. Thanks for reading my meanderings. Greg
) an M-1 Garand. I learned centerfire medium range shooting with a combination of those two rifles. The M-1 was not the "D" version but was setup in a similar manner. We killed many West Virginia Groundhogs, making ridge to ridge shots that were considered nonsense by anyone, outside the family that would listen to our tales . My Uncle loved to hunt, shoot, was a prolific handloader and tough as a boot! He was crippled in his legs, using 2 canes to balance himself as he dragged his feet behind him as he moved. When hunting. My Uncle would, leave one cane and use the M-1 as a substitute. He would 4X4 into a remote point where he could gather himself and his rifle, with a thermos of coffee and some grub and wait for the critters to show themselves. He accounted for many whitetail deer in this manner. When the weather was bad, he would still go out to hunt along with his nephews and stay close to the Scout, while we would try to push the deer to him for a shot. Through his instruction, I was able to avoid the "M-1 Thumb", during I.T.R., at Camp Lejune many moons ago. The .30/06 and the M-1 Garand have a soft spot in my heart (head
), based on those experiences.Presently I have a .30'06 with a SAAMI spec chamber, built on a Pre-64 M-70 with an H-S Precision heavy fluted barrel, in a McMillan Marksman stock. It will out shoot me
. It is a heavy handfull that has taken Mule Deer and Antelope at extended distances. Mostly, however, it punches holes in paper. I've been playing around with different optics and havent setteled on the perfect combination for this "riflegun". If I were limited to only one rifle, the .30'06 would not be a hinderance in any form of sport in which I would desire to compete. The new propellants that are coming available really open up the doors for enhanced performance in these older cartridges. .300 H&H magnum performance is reachable in the standard '06. That is a considerable jump, without going to the WSM and RSUM family of rounds, with a long barrel life to boot! Having a reamer made with closer than the MG tolerances standardized by SAAMI would do much to inhance any perceived accuracy issues, given a match grade barrel and proper setup. Remember, this round was a machinegun round as well as an infantry rifle round and was often used interchangably.
I have also used the civilian .308 and the 7.62 NATO, M-14. I like both rounds and given tight tolerances and quality components, both are capable of some amazing accuracy. I have been working on a .308 for a couple of years. Hopefully my amature gunsmithing abilities will be vindicated in this project
. Thanks for reading my meanderings. Greg"So I might as well say it again: the .30-06 can be modified, but it can't be improved."
Got to disagree with you there, German! It can be necked up to .338" for a major improvement.
Good piece on the case wall variation in the Jan issue, too.
Kevin
Got to disagree with you there, German! It can be necked up to .338" for a major improvement.
Good piece on the case wall variation in the Jan issue, too.
Kevin
;D
effendude
Gold $$ Contributor
I want to thank this post and German in particular for rekindling my interest in having a 30-06. I own a M1 Garand and a 03-A3 and enjoy the history associated with both rifles but have been drawn away from the 30-06 as a cartridge by other cartridges. Now I want to find a pre-64 Model 70 target rifle in 30-06 Govt. for the collection.
I, and probably most other shooters, are easily distracted or drawn away from what simply works very well by the shine and shine-ola of the sexier sound cartridges. Newer must be better, right?
This web site would not be as much fun if all we talked about was the 30-06 but this was a refreshing look at an American hero. The 30-06 allows us to live in a country where we can freely own any cartridges we wish, and deserves more creidit than it gets at times.
I do own a .35 Whelen and it is a fantastic cartridge also.
Happy New Year to all,
Scott
I, and probably most other shooters, are easily distracted or drawn away from what simply works very well by the shine and shine-ola of the sexier sound cartridges. Newer must be better, right?
This web site would not be as much fun if all we talked about was the 30-06 but this was a refreshing look at an American hero. The 30-06 allows us to live in a country where we can freely own any cartridges we wish, and deserves more creidit than it gets at times.
I do own a .35 Whelen and it is a fantastic cartridge also.
Happy New Year to all,
Scott
After reading 1 years worth of posts and 2 years of personal observation I decided to have Savage Fireams custom build a Model 12 BVSS cal 30-06 Long Range Varminter for me.
This is my fun gun , my target rifle , my competition rifle. Unfortunatley I can only find a 300 yd range in my area of Waco TX.
I have developed some great loads for this rifle using 168 to 180 gr BT bullets and IMR 4895 , H414 powders.
The best of the loads go into my Remington 700 BDL hunting rifle.
My best groups of 5 at 300 yds had been .756 " with 168 gr A MAX and H414 powder , Mag Rifle primers.
If I had to shoot a deranged civilian or a BIG BLACK BEAR who were chased by a Canadiian MOOSE , this would be the caliber I would use. The reliable 30-06.
'Nuff said.
This is my fun gun , my target rifle , my competition rifle. Unfortunatley I can only find a 300 yd range in my area of Waco TX.
I have developed some great loads for this rifle using 168 to 180 gr BT bullets and IMR 4895 , H414 powders.
The best of the loads go into my Remington 700 BDL hunting rifle.
My best groups of 5 at 300 yds had been .756 " with 168 gr A MAX and H414 powder , Mag Rifle primers.
If I had to shoot a deranged civilian or a BIG BLACK BEAR who were chased by a Canadiian MOOSE , this would be the caliber I would use. The reliable 30-06.
'Nuff said.
British nusery rhymne referring to a plot to destroy the government by plotters led by one Guido Fawkes by placing a large quantity of gunpowder in the cellars under the Houses of Parliament in 1605 to assassinate sitting MPs in order to restore a Roman Catholic government to power.
Remember remember the fifth of November
Gunpowder, treason and plot.
I see no reason why gunpowder, treason
Should ever be forgot...
Guy Fawkes, Guy Fawkes, t'was his intent
To blow up the King and Parliment.
Three score barrels of powder below
To prove old England's overthrow.
By God's providence he was catched
With a dark lantern and burning match.
Holla boys, holla boys, let the bells ring
Holla boys, holla boys, God save the King!
And what should we do with him? Burn him!
Guy Fawkes as he's popularly known came to a particularly unpleasant and lingering end after the plot was discovered and he was arrested - no 'human rights' for those who committed treason in those days. We celebrate his demise in the UK each November 5th by burning a 'guy' on bonfires and letting off fireworks. An official mix of political correctness and Health & Safety is doing its best to water this down with a view to complete abolition within a generation.
Non-PC individuals here who express dissatisfaction with our 'Great Leaders' have been known to apply bumper stickers that read:
"Come back Guy Fawkes - All is Forgiven!"
Laurie
The 06 is not obsolete, however i must offer the following input,
in NBRSA and IBS in the 70s,and early 80 a number of matches were won or showed top 3 finish with the 308, I know i never saw or heard of the 06 in any of these matches as it could not compete, now these were 1-300 yd matches with 10 and 13# guns but the result were clear, the 308 out shot the 06
Bob
in NBRSA and IBS in the 70s,and early 80 a number of matches were won or showed top 3 finish with the 308, I know i never saw or heard of the 06 in any of these matches as it could not compete, now these were 1-300 yd matches with 10 and 13# guns but the result were clear, the 308 out shot the 06
Bob
I absolutly love my 06. I'm no pro And just a noob, but last week I shot out to 600 with the winds whipin an swirling and with modern components there was a marked difference in performance of my 06, as opposed to the others there shooting .308's. I just need to rebarrel! My sporter barrel is just too whippy. 
German, do you think a 1:11 would stabilize 208 amax's? Or do you think 1:10 would be better? Also, thank you for the wealth of info you give on the awesome .30-06.
German, do you think a 1:11 would stabilize 208 amax's? Or do you think 1:10 would be better? Also, thank you for the wealth of info you give on the awesome .30-06.Just weighing in as a fan of the 30-06. Never shot a hunting rifle that felt better and offered such diversity. However, for all day target work it has a bit more recoil than I wanted so I bought a 30-06 Abbreviated. It is basically a 30-06 scaled down an average of 73%. All dimensions of the case are proportional within 68% to 80% of the 30-06 case. The shoulder angle is a little steeper on the Abbreviated. Bullet diameter is 73% of the .308 bullet yeilding a cross sectional area of 53% of the .308 bullet. Consequently, bullet weight range is roughly half of the 308. It feels every bit as good to shoot as the 30-06 with much less recoil. A big plus is that it will shoot 223 and 5.56 Nato ammo as if it was made for it. Gotta go, the guyz in the white jackets are at the door.
.
.
Heavies, keep enjoying that .30-06 they sure are great!
I think you will be better off with a 1:10" twist barrel for the 208 AMAX, that's a fairly long bullet. I've shot the 210 Berger in my 1:10" with no problems but haven't tried it in the 1:11" - it's pretty similar to the AMAX in length.
Last week I shot a 595 at 1000 yards using Sierra 190 and 200 with iron sights (as always) on the tubegun. My usual load gave me a 199-9X (53.5 H4350 Sierra 190 moly), then I left the powder charge alone and used a 200 Sierra moly, another 199-9X, I also tried 54.0 with the Sierra 200 moly but it gave me too much vertical and the score dropped to 197-7X. The next day I shot a 200-14X at 500 yards with the 53.5/190 moly load - that is one heck of a good load in the 1:11" barrel!
If you want to work with bullets longer than the Sierra 200, go with the 1:10" twist, but if you have a 1:11" already, there's nothing wrong with it at all for any distance with the 200 and the 190 (and of course, the lighter bullets). Besides, the 208 and 210 might work in the 1:11", I haven't tried them in it but I just might...
I think you will be better off with a 1:10" twist barrel for the 208 AMAX, that's a fairly long bullet. I've shot the 210 Berger in my 1:10" with no problems but haven't tried it in the 1:11" - it's pretty similar to the AMAX in length.
Last week I shot a 595 at 1000 yards using Sierra 190 and 200 with iron sights (as always) on the tubegun. My usual load gave me a 199-9X (53.5 H4350 Sierra 190 moly), then I left the powder charge alone and used a 200 Sierra moly, another 199-9X, I also tried 54.0 with the Sierra 200 moly but it gave me too much vertical and the score dropped to 197-7X. The next day I shot a 200-14X at 500 yards with the 53.5/190 moly load - that is one heck of a good load in the 1:11" barrel!
If you want to work with bullets longer than the Sierra 200, go with the 1:10" twist, but if you have a 1:11" already, there's nothing wrong with it at all for any distance with the 200 and the 190 (and of course, the lighter bullets). Besides, the 208 and 210 might work in the 1:11", I haven't tried them in it but I just might...
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