Interesting Cleaning Method Dilemma

[SplatCat]

Have new rifle, unshot yet, and am totally confused by comments read on the Krieger Barrels website regarding cleaning procedures. Krieger states, "Always clean from the breech whenever possible,I always have), pushing the patch or swab up to the muzzle and then back without completely exiting the muzzle. If you exit the muzzle, the rod is going to touch the bore and be dragged back in across the crown followed by the pathch or brush. Try to avoid dragging things in and out of the muzzle. It will eventually cause uneven wear of the crown. Accuracy will suffer and this can lead you to believe the barrel is shot out, when in fact, it still may have a lot of serve life left." He says later in the article, "Again, as with the chemical cleaners, a good rod and rod guide is necessary. A jag with a patch wrapped around it works well. Apply the cleaner and begin scrubbing in short, rather fast strokes of about two to four inches in length. Concentrate most of the strokes in the throat area, decreasing the number as you go toward the muzzle. Make a few full-length passes while avoiding exiting the muzzle completely, but do partially exit for about six strokes. You can avoid accidentally exiting by mounting the rifle in a vise or holder of some sort and blocking the rod at the muzzle with the wall or something to keep it from completely exiting."

What I get out of this is that patches and brushes should approach the muzzle, but never exit. Might make sense about the patches, but if a brush is reversed in direction near the muzzle, it seems to me that the bristles of the brush would have to reverse direction near the muzzle, eventually causing wear where they reverse. I called one of the major barrel manufacturers several years ago with the question I pose here, and he said to exit the muzzle with both patch and brush when cleaning. I now read the Krieger advice and....who is right? I have alway exited the muzzle with my brushing, bringing the brush all the way back to the throat, then back out the muzzle, using one stroke for each two shots taken. I have always pushed patches out the muzzle, letting them drop into a container, then bringing rod back for removal or for inserting another patch. Also, if brass is much softer than stainless steel, why the concern about a brass jag or brass brush contacting the muzzle?

ALSO: Regarding chemicals, Krieger says, "It is fine to use two different cleaners as long as you completely remove the first cleaner from the barrel before cleaning with the second. And, of course, never mix them in the same bottle." No mention is made as to how to neutralize a copper remover such as Sweets before going back to using your favorite bore solvent. Sweets is recommended by James Calhoun for use during barrel break-in. I do not ordinarilly use Sweets because it contains ammonia and can damage the barrel if is not completely removed or if it is left in more than 5 minutes.

So....how does one effectively remove Sweets.....or, should I say "neutralize" Sweets after it is used? Or will using my regular bore-cleaning solution effectively neutralize it? And... to top things off, what does Kroil do and should it be used as part of the cleaning procedure or just before putting the gun into storage?

 

[BoydAllen]

I use coated rods, and every time that one is removed from a barrel, I wipe it off with a paper towel. This reduces the chance for the powder fouling and primer grit to damage the bore as the rod slides against it. I use a rod guide that has an inner tube that goes as far forward as it can without catching on the patch or brush on a back stroke. It does a better job than the typical guide. For a solvent, I only use Butch's Bore Shine. It does a good job. When I am pushing a patch or brush through the bore I take my time, and try to keep the rod in line with the bore. As the jag or brush exits the muzzle I stop the rod, minimizing the opportunity for muzzle wear. If the back of the jag is bigger than the front of the rod, I tape the joint to keep the jag from catching the crown as it is pulled back into the barrel. When cleaning a 6mm bore, I use a .22 cal. Sinclair jag in conjunction with a 1 3/8" square patch, since the main job of the patch is to carry the solvent into the bore. Using a tight patch to apply solvent makes no sense to me, since it leaves most of the solvent squeezed off in the chamber. After wetting the bore with a well saturated patch, I short stroke my next wet patch as many as 20 times right at the throat, and then short stroke it as I advance it to the muzzle and out. I repeat the process absent the extra throat work two or three more times. After I have a clean patch with this method, I leave the bore wet and busy myself with something else for fifteen minutes or so. After that, I run another wet patch through and examine it for color that would indicate that further cleaning is required. If I need to, I leave the bore we for another quarter hour, or I may brush for ten cycles or so. If I brush I will follow this immediately with two wet patches so as not to get a false color reading from the copper bits that are ground off of the brush as it is used. In any case, I will wait another few minutes, wet patch again,and if it looks good, use 3 patches to dry the bore, and then dry the chamber with a strip of paper towel wrapped on an old brush on my chamber rod. Last, I visually inspect the bore, and grease,very lightly) the rear of the locking lugs, as well as apply a slightly more generous amount to the cocking cam, and then reinsert the bolt, taking care to not leave it cocked. With all of this care, my crowns look good. Even so, I think it an excellent idea to shorten by 1/4" and re crown every 4-500 rounds or so. All of the above routine is for my 6PPC that only sees competition use, and has only been fitted with top quality, hand lapped barrels. Also, the level of powder fouling given that I get shooting 133 at relatively high pressures, is relatively minor to darn near nonexistent at top loads. Stop worrying so much and go out and enjoy that new barrel.

 

[SplatCat]

Then, since you allow your brushes and patches to exit the muzzle, your method is wrong, according to Krieger. You missed the entire point and content of my post.

 

[BoydAllen]

Why don't you call them and verify if that is what they meant? I have been to a lot of Benchrest matches and have discussed what is done at many more that friends have been to, and I have never heard of anyone that did not let his or her patch or brush exit. This seems much ado about nothing. All of my barrels have been examined, before and after much shooting and cleaning and the method that I described has not shown any problems at the muzzle at 20X magnification. I offered the information as a method that works. Heck, if it is too much trouble for you, I'll make the call, and post their answer. I think that you missed MY point. Putting it more directly, I think that you are worried about nothing. Although it is obviously true that either end of a barrel can be screwed up with a cleaning rod, careful attention to the small details and the best equipment can prevent it...with patches and brushes exiting the muzzle.

 

[Preacher]

No matter what anyone says you should NEVER pull a brass or bronze brush back through the barrel. If you stop your brush short of the muzzle and pull it back through it will reverse the bristles and wreck havoc on the crown......
Why would you want to pull any junk back into the barrel anyways
Push your brush through and remove it before pulling the rod back is the safest way.
There would seem to be a advantage to a muzzle break that would support the brush and the rod during the cleaning process, and help keep it off the crown, but you still shouldn't pull a brush back through the barrel IMHO.
You can neutralize Sweets with plain old rubbing alcohol...

 

[BoydAllen]

Fellas, give me a break. I venture to say that probably all of the short range world records were shot with barrels that have been cleaned pulling the brush back through the barrel. I have several barrels that shoot quite well that are routinely cleaned this way, and I do have access to a bore scope. Actually, I have never seen anyone remove a brush at the muzzle at a short range Benchrest match, and I am talking about a group that includes the shooters within the top four positions of the hall of fame, and hold world records. You won't hurt anything taking off the brush, but if your are using careful technique, you won't gain much. I grant you, recrowning after a few hundred rounds will perk things up, but I don't think that this is due to brush wear. I understand that manufacturers have no control over shooters rod technique, and I have seen shooter that looked like they were cleaning out a chimney or sewer pipe on a tight schedule, so I understand why they are conservative with their instructions, but borescopes and targets don't lie, and world records and winning results don't either.

 

[halfmoanut]

I would have to agree with Boyd on this issue.I have and have a gunsmith that I shoot with regularly and using a good bore guide with the proper rod,jag,brushes,etc you will not damage the crown or the barrel by pushing and pulling the copper brush back through the bore,S/S is tuff stuff and it will take more
push and pulls than most guys can apply. Also clean is clean and dirty is always one shot.

 

[jo191145]

Boyds Right.

Ever see those star shaped carbon marks on your 11 degree target crown? The brush ain't putting them there. Thats hot gases with particles of carbon traveling across your crown at warp speed. Hard to imagine a relatively soft bronze brush in slow motion causing more wear than that.

 

[gunner69]

I know this is an old thread but many times people including myself search older threads for answers and advice.

I too never really understood why you would use a bore guide on the chamber end but not on the muzzle crown end. A jag and rod will drag and strike the muzzle crown area hundreds if not thousands of times cleaning during the life of a barrel. I created a simple bore guide for the muzzle crown end and it works really well. We have two sizes at the moment with more coming out soon. There are some good videos on the site too which demonstrate the issue and how the Crown Cradle works. Hope this helps and maybe is seen as a solution or least as extra insurance/precaution for the precision marksman.

http://crowncradle.bigcartel.com

 

[M-61]

from PREACHER:
"No matter what anyone says you should NEVER pull a brass or bronze brush back through the barrel. If you stop your brush short of the muzzle and pull it back through it will reverse the bristles and wreck havoc on the crown......"

The key here (I think) is "If you stop your brush...." without fully exiting the muzzle. Should you not it is nearly impossible to get those bristles to 'flip'.
In fact it's a good trick to remove certain bushings that you can not get at....and it yanks them (totally different application)

I have not seen anyone unscrew a brush so as not to pull it back thru......I guess you could machine the threads off and just keep picking it up as it exits but i have not seen that either.

The above is my observations only,based on NO scientific testing at all.

 

[waltk]

I have never be able to reverse a (unless it was extremely undersize, then I wouldn't use it) bronze or brass brush in a barrel bore. So I could never understand that statement about pulling a brush backwards in a firearm barrel bore.