• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Inside neck size button?

griffgil1

Who is using inside neck sizing buttons with their F.L. sizing die for rifle cases? Reason for asking is that I am in a pickle.......
When I use the button on my redding sizing die, it just defeats the purpose of neck sizing because it "re-expands" the neck on its way out of the case.
Example, using redding F.L. die with neck bushing, sized at .245 for AR .223, if I remove the button the cases size right on the money, but using the button the necks
come out with a diameter of .247+. Also, I was thinking of using the forester case trimmer, but it requires that I expand the neck to fit over the pilot, indicating that their
trimmers are actually designed to be used before sizing?????? So, I'd love to get some feedback on what systems or procedures some of you are using. Thanks all.
 
I'm using a Redding S FL die with the carbide expander button. My current brass, resized with a .263 button, measures right at .263 after sizing and ready to shoot. Don't know if this helps, but maybe you should get the carbide button? What's also good about the carbide button, is that it expands the brass to exactly the right size for using on my PMA neck turner.

Dennis
 
The sized case neck diameter should get larger/expand by .002" after seating a bullet. This will give about 35 to 45 lbs neck tension. The expander should measure .222" to .2225" for an AR15. Take measurements of the sized neck with and without the inside expanded. If your not neck turning your brass, using the expander is a good idea, as long as its not over working the brass. The bushing must be the correct size.
 
forester case trimmer

Forester case trimmer pilots can be made smaller by chucking in a drill and use emery paper to make it smaller in diameter.
430184.jpg
 
I never use the expander ball with bushing dies because, as you already mentioned, it defeats the purpose of the bushing. If I have a dinged neck I will run the expander ONLY in and out to round it out then remove it a size the case.
As for trimmer pilots, I polish them to just fit into a sized case neck for outside trimming.
 
griffgil1 said:
Who is using inside neck sizing buttons with their F.L. sizing die for rifle cases?

Reason for asking is that I am in a pickle..When I use the button on my Redding sizing die, it just defeats the purpose of neck sizing because it "re-expands" the neck on its way out of the case.

Example, using Redding F.L. die with neck bushing, sized at .245 for AR .223, if I remove the button the cases size right on the money, but using the button the necks come out with a diameter of .247+. Also, I was thinking of using the forester case trimmer, but it requires that I expand the neck to fit over the pilot, indicating that their
trimmers are actually designed to be used before sizing?????? So, I'd love to get some feedback on what systems or procedures some of you are using. Thanks all.
Click to expand...

An expander button with a F/L Bushing die [if attached??] should be immediately removed and either thrown in the trash or saved for posterity. It totally defeats the purpose of the bushing. The two are incongruous/contradictory.

Trying to use the expander ball found with some F/L sizing dies prior to neck turning opens up a can of worms. Don't use it.

When expanding a neck before neck turning so the case neck will fit on the turner's mandrel, Always, always, always, use the expander sold by the neck turner's manufacturer. They're designed to work together. Roger Miller at K&M can walk you through the proper selection of tools if a little shaky with the process: https://www.kmshooting.com/index.php

A case "Trimmer" cuts length off of the case. A "Turner" removes brass from the circumference of the neck. The terms are not interchangeable.

I highly recommend you trim before turning, so that when you turn necks, the cut into the shoulder/neck junction is the same on all cases. :)
 
You should pre-expand necks prior to bullet seating.
It drives thickness variance outward away from seating bullets (which are horrible expanders).

But I would never drag one of them buttons through necks..
The best expansion I've found is Sinclair's mandrel system. Separate operation.
Sinclair is more useful than K&M's expandiron whether setting up to turn or not, because Sinclair leaves the necks ready to seat bullets with good tension. The K&M system is too large and so you have to size necks after it's use.
 
Sounds like Oranges and Artichokes are being discussed in the same conversation.

Here is an excellent article [with outstanding pictures] by German Salazar on Neck Turning Basics that NEVER once refers to a full length die sizing button: http://www.6mmbr.com/neckturningbasics.html

The second picture down shows two neck Expanders [one, with a screw sticking out the bottom] that are used prior to turning necks. I point this out to show the expander used prior to turning. As you can see it's a totally different kind of tool.

Again, Bushing dies and die expanding buttons attached to decapping pin rods are incompatible. Two totally different processes are employed when they're being used. If a case neck has been turned and a bushing employed to add neck tension [for fine tuning a load along with seating depth], never, never, never run an expander button through it.

Either use a Full Length sizing die with the expander button as is, OR a Full Length sizing die with a bushing cavity. Each kind of die manipulates the case neck differently. :)
 
Well Said

BoydAllen:
When an unturned neck is sized with no expander ball or mandrel used, the irregularities show up on the ID rather than the OD. Choosing ones bushing size so that the expander ball can barely be felt as it passes through the neck, the ID of the neck is made more uniform, but the amount of pull on the neck is so slight that the case will not be made less straight by pulling it through the neck. With one piece dies that over size neck to a degree that is impractical for good bullet seating unless some sort of expanding is done, I have found that using an expander die and mandrel works much better than an expander ball, with regard to the straightness of the resultant ammo. If the ID of a case neck was in perfect alignment with the body of its case, taking a reading off of the OD of the neck would show runout equal to the variation in thickness of the neck, which is why it is better to check unturned brass, with a bullet seated, since it is the alignment of the bullet to the body of the case that is the major concern.
Click to expand...
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3826811.20;wap2
 
Re: Loading for Autos

243winxb said:
Sierra - http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/gasgunreload.cfm
Redding_1.jpg
When not using an expander and the brass has not been neck turned, the bullet becomes the expander.
Click to expand...

Great picture. Why Redding includes the expander button with their Type S die is beyond me. It only confuses a lot of people. And, if it's intended purpose is to expand necks prior to placing it on a turner's neck turning mandrel, then the trouble really begins.

The button's expanded diameter and the mandrel's diameter may really be off. You need a perfect fit to turn necks properly. When I received the two Type S that I own I immediately discarded the buttons.

I don't want anything in the same room that would undo the bushings intended purpose or overly expand or under expand a neck that has to fit another manufacturer's Neck Turning Mandrel.
 
Boyd's completely right.
If your button is right, and your bushing or FL die is right for the brass thickness, then expansion is not counter productive at all.
griffgil1, what do your loaded neck ODs measure?
 
I think quite a bit is being left unsaid. I use a Redding Type S FL bushing die for my AR reloads, and it still has the expander in it. I use the bushing die so that I don't over work the neck. The bushing is set to only size the neck ~.001" below where the expander will finally set it. I'm not about to neck turn thousands of cases for my AR, but I want the brass to last as long as possible, so I work the neck the minimum amount. My other FL dies, Hornady and RCBS, size the neck as much as .004" below where the neck expander will set it. The reason I still use the expander is so that the neck imperfections are forced to the outside of the case. If the necks haven't been turned then the outside of the case body and case neck will be coaxial after the FL die, but the neck ID will not be coaxial. Since the neck has been sized only ~.001 below its finish size the expander has minimal "pull" on the case neck. It works for me.
 
Outdoorsman said:
Sounds like Oranges and Artichokes are being discussed in the same conversation.

Here is an excellent article [with outstanding pictures] by German Salazar on Neck Turning Basics that NEVER once refers to a full length die sizing button: http://www.6mmbr.com/neckturningbasics.html
Click to expand...

But he does mention it in his article on the 30-06. He mentions turning necks and that the expander ball should glide through the neck.

"When you can just barely feel the expander ball gliding over the inside of the case neck, you've got it right."
 
A comment on expanders over working brass:
When sizing unturned necks, with a bushing die, and expander ball, I select a bushing that is just small enough so that necks are just barely expanded. This does not over work the brass because the movement is so small. If I need more neck tension, I polish the expander to a smaller diameter, which may require a smaller bushing so that the expander is again slightly engaged. I believe that John Whidden offers expanders in different sizes for those who want them larger than standard, or who are not confident in their ability to reduce one. I have owned, used, and written about various concentricity gauges for over a couple of decades, and it has been that long since I figured out why typical one piece dies are so damaging to the straightness of the cases that they are used to size. It is not the expander that is the real culprit, but rather the excessively small inside diameters of the neck portions of these dies that really causes the problem. I have a one piece 6PPC die that is a pretty good fit for brass that I have turned for my .262 chamber, and it came with an expander ball that I later ground down to well undersized, but before I did, that die produced extremely straight brass that measured around a third of a thousandth or less runout at the ends of sized case necks. IMO, most of the expander anxiety and opposition is misplaced, when it is in reference to a bushing die, as long as a properly sized bushing is selected, and the task is sizing unturned brass.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Classified Ads

Forum statistics

Threads
164,774
Messages
2,184,213
Members
78,524
Latest member
SJTUTTLE18

Share This Page

Back
Top