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Initial report on eTargets from Lodi Nationals

I can't see why the target number is not ON the target for FClass-only competitions. The present number boards were designed for iron sights and can be high or low below the target and out of sight for your scope.

We had a really bad crossfire problem at StLouis with the numbers above and way up on the berm. So... To fix that we put numbers on the top of every target frame. No more headaches after that! Typing paper with thick magic marker numbers and glued them at the top of each target. $2 solution to a big problem. The only draw back is that target has to be on that position.
 
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I haven't gone through all 80 posts but, one thing came to my mind. All targets were scored the same. There was no bias or individual interpretations of scoring techniques to deal with. I like that.
 
I haven't gone through all 80 posts but, one thing came to my mind. All targets were scored the same. There was no bias or individual interpretations of scoring techniques to deal with. I like that.
Yes I agree. Unless, the target face was changed in between matches and the new face was placed in a different location than the initial face. This screws up any zeros acquired before the face was changed.
This happened to me in the last match of the Nationals.

Fritz
 
Yes I agree. Unless, the target face was changed in between matches and the new face was placed in a different location than the initial face. This screws up any zeros acquired before the face was changed.
This happened to me in the last match of the Nationals.

Fritz
Hit the ENTER button too quickly.... This is not a problem with the SMT system but with whoever replaced the farther face
 
Hit the ENTER button too quickly.... This is not a problem with the SMT system but with whoever replaced the farther face

And this is why at Atterbury we shoot with an offset. That way the faces don't need to be replaced and the changes that you are talking about don't occur. I know previously on this topic people here said that at a national championship you shouldn't use an offset, but the situation you had happen doesn't happen if you don't need to reface.
 
And this is why at Atterbury we shoot with an offset. That way the faces don't need to be replaced and the changes that you are talking about don't occur. I know previously on this topic people here said that at a national championship you shouldn't use an offset, but the situation you had happen doesn't happen if you don't need to reface.
Hensb
And this is why at Atterbury we shoot with an offset. That way the faces don't need to be replaced and the changes that you are talking about don't occur. I know previously on this topic people here said that at a national championship you shouldn't use an offset, but the situation you had happen doesn't happen if you don't need to reface.

Heman
This sort of error should not happen AT ALL when there are only two sighters at 1000 yards. If replacement is required, as it probably was in this case due to water damage from rain, then IT'S IMPERATIVE that the new face be placed EXACTLY where the previous one was.
Even with unlimited sighters, changing the physical position of the paper face relative to the electronics is a questionable practice.
Fritz
 
Hensb


Heman
This sort of error should not happen AT ALL when there are only two sighters at 1000 yards. If replacement is required, as it probably was in this case due to water damage from rain, then IT'S IMPERATIVE that the new face be placed EXACTLY where the previous one was.
Even with unlimited sighters, changing the physical position of the paper face relative to the electronics is a questionable practice.
Fritz

Fritz, I agree completely. What I'm saying is at our range with the SMT targets we have used the same faces all season long, they've been rained on, even snowed on, sunshine, etc. With the offset all the hits are on the 9/8 line at 6 o'clock. All I was saying is by using the offset you don't have to replace the centers. Otherwise you are correct you need to make sure they are placed exactly the same way.
 
Fritz, I agree completely. What I'm saying is at our range with the SMT targets we have used the same faces all season long, they've been rained on, even snowed on, sunshine, etc. With the offset all the hits are on the 9/8 line at 6 o'clock. All I was saying is by using the offset you don't have to replace the centers. Otherwise you are correct you need to make sure they are placed exactly the same way.
Understand and agree. We do the same at the Port Malabar Rifle and Pistol Club (mid range) where we have the SMT targets and I've shot at other locations (long range) where this is done.
This may be splitting hairs but there is also the potential of confusing the shooter as far as a no-wind zero. If the face is shifted laterally relative to the display then a no-wind zero on the scope is useless. Furthermore I wonder if wind holds become "non linear".
Food for thought.
Fritz
 
Understand and agree. We do the same at the Port Malabar Rifle and Pistol Club (mid range) where we have the SMT targets and I've shot at other locations (long range) where this is done.
This may be splitting hairs but there is also the potential of confusing the shooter as far as a no-wind zero. If the face is shifted laterally relative to the display then a no-wind zero on the scope is useless. Furthermore I wonder if wind holds become "non linear".
Food for thought.
Fritz

We have a couple shooters who are on the National team, plus some others who are pretty good (one of them is Mike P.) they haven't noticed any issue with the offset and their holding off/etc. Just all food for thought. The e-targets are an exciting new improvement.
 
Yes I agree. Unless, the target face was changed in between matches and the new face was placed in a different location than the initial face. This screws up any zeros acquired before the face was changed.
This happened to me in the last match of the Nationals.

Fritz
Do you know for sure that your target center was changed? I'm only aware that one target center was replaced due to coming loose in the rain. There definitely was a temperature change between the two matches on the last day. That causes an elevation adjustment the next time we had to shoot.
 
We have a couple shooters who are on the National team, plus some others who are pretty good (one of them is Mike P.) they haven't noticed any issue with the offset and their holding off/etc. Just all food for thought. The e-targets are an exciting new improvement.
Could very well be. Unless I'm mistaken I was probably one of the first to shoot on the SMT targets at Blakely Ga.
I always was one of the proponents of the system and think they are a great time saver which will enhance our sport.
I think we are on a road of constant discovery with this system.
 
Do you know for sure that your target center was changed? I'm only aware that one target center was replaced due to coming loose in the rain. There definitely was a temperature change between the two matches on the last day. That causes an elevation adjustment the next time we had to shoot.
Ringostar
I could not see the pits from the 1000 yard line so I can only surmise. What I do know for sure is my load and I can tell you that we did not have a temperature difference even close to what would be required to have made that vertical difference.
Fritz
 
Ringostar
What I do know for sure is my load and I can tell you that we did not have a temperature difference even close to what would be required to have made that vertical difference.

Folks changing target faces at WGC have been doing it for a long time; for these latest events the same protocols used haven't changed (unless in this instance the entire target needed replacing by a new one?): a new target center gets aligned as close as humanly possible to the one it's covering up.

Fritz I have to ask, was this your first visit to WGC? From your other comments it seems you're an experienced shooter. I've shot a couple of OBR'S at Malabar & know it's got its peculiarities for wind & conditions, the same is true for the range at WGC used for these events.

I've seen coaches for the national team shake their heads in dismay, sometimes uttering "where did that come from?" when faced with changes in vertical POI fired by experienced, competent shooters during a string of fire.

I'm sorry I couldn't stay for the last day's festivities that Saturday but I was there Wednesday, Thursday & for the first match Friday. One esteemed shooter whose home range is Rattlesnake made a comment during that time that "what's the point?" of shooting there if there are conditions that you can't see then account for that can do this to shooters' rounds.

I certainly can't answer that, it's up to each one of us who shoot there to decide whether it's worth it or not. Everyone gets the same treatment, the range doesn't throw curves only at a few.
 
I only shot the long range matches.

I found that the SMT system in general worked well, and in fact after shooting the the match, I feel it's the future and greatly prefer it over the traditional paper targets (even if I didn't have to pull targets myself).

My only real complaint was the Lenovo tablets used, at times I got the big red X when shooting or scoring, extremely frustrating and it disrupts your rhythm. Something about them just didn't play nice with the WiFi.

Once I was allowed to use my own personal iPad it was much better, which did not disconnect once (heck even my iPhone didn't disconnect once when I used it).

There was some minor niggles with the web page updating and resetting my carefully set up zoom level, etc. but it wasn't a big deal.

Another thing I liked about my iPad was that it was a 4:3 display instead of the 16:9 or 16:10 of the Lenovo (and most Android tablets), it was a better use of the screen area to look at the actual target itself.

Operationally, the ETs can greatly increase the capacity of a range and make the match run much faster, but the rules haven't caught up (and I understand that there would resistance to changing those rules too much).

I noticed at Lodi that there was a lot of standing around, where most every target finished fairly quickly and everyone waited for those couple of targets that took the whole 195 minutes.

If you queue up shooters like in a checkout line at a big box store (e.g. for 30 targets, start the first 30 people, once one shooter finishes next shooter in line takes his place, and so on, with your place in line being determined by your score and/or classification, or however), you could probably significantly cut down the time used, or increase capacity for the same amount of time it currently takes.

In this system, there would much less chance of bottlenecks where, for example everybody finishes except that few targets where everyone takes their full 33 minute block time (and thus the total 195 minutes), those shooters would be more likely to be evenly distributed throughout the line so that that the total time need for all the shooters on any given target likely decreases.

The only time this would break down is if eveyone in fact used all or most of their 33 minutes, but in that case you'd be no worse off than the current system.

You can do this either for the whole day's shooting (3 matches), which would require a rule change but which would yield the most time savings, but even within a single match this would make things go along quicker, and probably significantly reduce the actual total time required for everyone to shoot in a single match, without denying everyone their option to use their full 33 minutes.
 
Folks changing target faces at WGC have been doing it for a long time; for these latest events the same protocols used haven't changed (unless in this instance the entire target needed replacing by a new one?): a new target center gets aligned as close as humanly possible to the one it's covering up.

Fritz I have to ask, was this your first visit to WGC? From your other comments it seems you're an experienced shooter. I've shot a couple of OBR'S at Malabar & know it's got its peculiarities for wind & conditions, the same is true for the range at WGC used for these events.

I've seen coaches for the national team shake their heads in dismay, sometimes uttering "where did that come from?" when faced with changes in vertical POI fired by experienced, competent shooters during a string of fire.

I'm sorry I couldn't stay for the last day's festivities that Saturday but I was there Wednesday, Thursday & for the first match Friday. One esteemed shooter whose home range is Rattlesnake made a comment during that time that "what's the point?" of shooting there if there are conditions that you can't see then account for that can do this to shooters' rounds.

I certainly can't answer that, it's up to each one of us who shoot there to decide whether it's worth it or not. Everyone gets the same treatment, the range doesn't throw curves only at a few.
Spclark
In answer to your question: yes this is the first time I shot at the WGC range. I am aware that each range have their quirks and one that I noticed about WGC which made LR shooting even more enjoyable were the occasional and "unexplainable" verticals. I had a couple happen but this was definitely not the case for match 13. There was a definite shift in the target face placement or the whole target relative to the electronics.
I was able to correct in my first shot for record but I lost both sighters as I could not believe that this happened. Sighter 1 was about 1 minute high and, thinking it might have been me I made a slight correction down for sighter 2. Not enough. When I realized that there was this vertical (and horizontal) shift in the target position, I corrected elevation on the scope , held for eindage and my first through fourth shots for record were X's.
When I figure out how to load a picture on this forum I'll put both targets up so that you can see what I'm talking about.
(Part of the beauty of electronic targets which would not be doable with pulled targets)
Fritz
 
Fritz I am not aware of *ANY* calibration errors during the LR matches. By this I mean there should have been repeatability to within 1/2" from day to day and target to target (which at 1000 yards is zero detectable error or offset).

If you tell me which target number and which day you think you may have seen an offset of 1MOA vertically and 1/2-MOA horizontally, I might be able to find it in the photos we took at the end of each day of the target faces (in order to check/verify that we were maintaining calibration).

**EDIT a bit later to add Fritz's first target of the day:

Silver%20Mountain%20Targets%20-%20Google%20Chrome_100.png


... and the second target, in which he saw the offset problem (see positions of "S1" and "S2"):

Silver%20Mountain%20Targets%20-%20Google%20Chrome_101.png
 
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Spclark
In answer to your question: yes this is the first time I shot at the WGC range. I am aware that each range have their quirks and one that I noticed about WGC which made LR shooting even more enjoyable were the occasional and "unexplainable" verticals. I had a couple happen but this was definitely not the case for match 13. There was a definite shift in the target face placement or the whole target relative to the electronics.
I was able to correct in my first shot for record but I lost both sighters as I could not believe that this happened. Sighter 1 was about 1 minute high and, thinking it might have been me I made a slight correction down for sighter 2. Not enough. When I realized that there was this vertical (and horizontal) shift in the target position, I corrected elevation on the scope , held for eindage and my first through fourth shots for record were X's.
When I figure out how to load a picture on this forum I'll put both targets up so that you can see what I'm talking about.
(Part of the beauty of electronic targets which would not be doable with pulled targets)
Fritz
Incidentally I think we've beat this horse to death. Just something to keep in mind the next time target faces are changed in between matches with limited sighters. My first experience at WGC can be summarized as follows:
Very challenging. Would have been 100% enjoyable, rain not withstanding, if the firing line had been in better shape and if firing position 7 had not been not been a mud pit on the last day.
Fritz
 
Fritz I am not aware of *ANY* calibration errors during the LR matches. By this I mean there should have been repeatability to within 1/2" from day to day and target to target (which at 1000 yards is zero detectable error or offset).

If you tell me which target number and which day you think you may have seen an offset of 1MOA vertically and 1/2-MOA horizontally, I might be able to find it in the photos we took at the end of each day of the target faces (in order to check/verify that we were maintaining calibration).
Hello Daniel
Target 7. Apparent change occurred from Match 12 to Match 13
Fritz
 
Incidentally I think we've beat this horse to death. Just something to keep in mind the next time target faces are changed in between matches with limited sighters. My first experience at WGC can be summarized as follows:
Very challenging. Would have been 100% enjoyable, rain not withstanding, if the firing line had been in better shape and if firing position 7 had not been not been a mud pit on the last day.
Fritz

As I was the match director the only time the targets were refaced for the long range was at the end of the day. The only time any one went to the pits during the day was to check on target 25. I'm not sure what happened but we will continue to improve everything we can. Thanks for the feedback.
Mark
 
Fritz, I was shooting next to you on target 6. I also had almost a minute elevation increase from my first to second match that day. It's very common shooting at Lodi. Neither of our targets were changed.
 

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