Initial report on eTargets from Lodi Nationals
- Thread starter Bryan Litz Ballistics
- Start date
I shot the MR and 3 days at long range. Back gave out and was unable to shoot the last day of LR.
My comments will be focused on my personal experiences, comments from other shooters and the open discussion at the shooters meeting with the representative of the NRA HP committee:
1. Early MR tablet connection issues were a bit more than just troublesome. Not just a big red X, but tablet going completely off-line. Targets seemed to be working a-ok, but the tablets would loose connections often. When tested with other Apple and Samsung products they never seemed to drop out. Confirmed a rule with the NRA official. "If thru no fault of the shooter, the shot location and value are not established within 2:00 minutes of the last shot, the shooters has the option of taking a sighter shot not counted toward the record" Just my recollection, not exact text. That rule was not uniformly applied on the line.
2. Yes, some were trying to game the system by shooting a follow on shot before the 7 seconds were up. I had thought entering the event that the location and score would be delayed the 7 seconds.
3. At the shooters meeting 3 issues seemed to gain a majority of support. a. That the 7 second delay was appropriate. b. That the display of the value and position of the shot be delayed the 7 seconds. c. In lieu of the instant value display, an indication that the target received a shot and display the round count on the tablet, while waiting the 7 seconds for the value and location.
I think the early issues with tablet drop out can be corrected easily. Earl is well aware of this shortcoming and will appoint a team to sort it out for future events. I fully support the use of ETs and hope someday soon the information would be available in real time on the net. It would seem a small step from where we are now and potentially give the sport a huge boost in exposure.
My thanks to all who worked the many hours to install this system and the line officials that did everything but jump thru burning flames to help keep the match going.
Steve
My comments will be focused on my personal experiences, comments from other shooters and the open discussion at the shooters meeting with the representative of the NRA HP committee:
1. Early MR tablet connection issues were a bit more than just troublesome. Not just a big red X, but tablet going completely off-line. Targets seemed to be working a-ok, but the tablets would loose connections often. When tested with other Apple and Samsung products they never seemed to drop out. Confirmed a rule with the NRA official. "If thru no fault of the shooter, the shot location and value are not established within 2:00 minutes of the last shot, the shooters has the option of taking a sighter shot not counted toward the record" Just my recollection, not exact text. That rule was not uniformly applied on the line.
2. Yes, some were trying to game the system by shooting a follow on shot before the 7 seconds were up. I had thought entering the event that the location and score would be delayed the 7 seconds.
3. At the shooters meeting 3 issues seemed to gain a majority of support. a. That the 7 second delay was appropriate. b. That the display of the value and position of the shot be delayed the 7 seconds. c. In lieu of the instant value display, an indication that the target received a shot and display the round count on the tablet, while waiting the 7 seconds for the value and location.
I think the early issues with tablet drop out can be corrected easily. Earl is well aware of this shortcoming and will appoint a team to sort it out for future events. I fully support the use of ETs and hope someday soon the information would be available in real time on the net. It would seem a small step from where we are now and potentially give the sport a huge boost in exposure.
My thanks to all who worked the many hours to install this system and the line officials that did everything but jump thru burning flames to help keep the match going.
Steve
ryanjay11
Gold $$ Contributor
I would like to suggest that the default target(or even better, the only target available) for the F-Class National Championship be the F-Class target, not the Highpower target. Also, I would like to suggest setting up the system so it is impossible to go for record if you are not actually logged in.
I will admit, I got bit on this, and from what I've heard, a couple of pretty well known shooters had the same issue. When my 199-10x turned into a much lower score, it was pretty disappointing. I should have logged on(and that's on me), but the two above suggestions would eliminate someone else from having a "hero to zero" moment like I did.
I will admit, I got bit on this, and from what I've heard, a couple of pretty well known shooters had the same issue. When my 199-10x turned into a much lower score, it was pretty disappointing. I should have logged on(and that's on me), but the two above suggestions would eliminate someone else from having a "hero to zero" moment like I did.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
You're still a hero, Ryan...everyone says so
. I'm guessing you're just a hero that, as a child, didn't play video games quite as often as kids today do, and therefore aren't as computer savvy as today's youth seem to be almost instinctively. Just imagine how a dinosaur, such as myself, would have fared (LOL). It wouldn't have been pretty.
Last edited:
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Ryan, at least it was on an E target and could be fixed (other than your satisfaction with your score). I hesitate to mention this, but someone at the Sinclairs this yr fired one of his F class matches on a sling target at 300, and there was a great unhappiness in the land.
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
We drove in on Monday afternoon and showed up at the range on Tuesday morning for the MR team match. This was my first experience with the ETs. I was calling wind for the team and at the end of the match my overall impression was that it was equivalent to shooting in the dark.
I have been shooting High Power, SR and F for so long that not seeing the targets go down after a shot introduced trepidation in my demeanor; it was just not natural. Also, I take visual clues from the other targets around mine showing the score and their hit spotters. With ETs those cues are gone. You can see the targets around you as a row at the bottom of your screen, but when the Sun is bright, it's difficult to see, especially if you wear polarized sunglasses as I do.
I found that I was not using my spotting scope very much, if at all while calling wind at MR.
The next day, I started shooting the individuals and the feeling of shooting in the dark resurfaced. It also made it more difficult to see where the others targets were being hit and so once again, I was shooting at an immovable wall, getting no direct feedback.
I'm somewhat color blind and red is not a color that is good for me to read. Red on black, in the middle of a field, in bright or liquid sunshine is near-hopeless. I would hope that in the future the hit color would be yellow or white or better yet, something that can be selected by the individual.
For the LR team match we place the supplied Lenovo tablet so the shooter could see where he or she was hitting and I pulled out my Samsung Note Pro 12.2 tablet and adjusted the brightness to liking and went back to wind calling. I also made use of my weatherproof holder and I was glad I had bought the landscape version; it held my tablet nicely out of the rain, sleet and snow we got during the team matches. I also got very few delays with the Samsung, and I don't think I got a red X at all that day. On Saturday, I went back to the Lenovo and got a few red X and some delays in loading.
The network problems were due to having the access point set at the same channel or auto. My WiFi analyzer showed channel 6 being saturated whereas 1 was wide open and 11 had just a couple. The signal coverage was good, the channels needed some diversity.
I downloaded all my scores from the server later that day and stored them on my system and I think that is a great thing to have. I took some pictures of the targets and the microphones and will post them here later.
Bottom line, I like the ETs, takes some getting used to and you definitely need to pay attention, but they worked fine and provide a lot of usable info.
I have been shooting High Power, SR and F for so long that not seeing the targets go down after a shot introduced trepidation in my demeanor; it was just not natural. Also, I take visual clues from the other targets around mine showing the score and their hit spotters. With ETs those cues are gone. You can see the targets around you as a row at the bottom of your screen, but when the Sun is bright, it's difficult to see, especially if you wear polarized sunglasses as I do.
I found that I was not using my spotting scope very much, if at all while calling wind at MR.
The next day, I started shooting the individuals and the feeling of shooting in the dark resurfaced. It also made it more difficult to see where the others targets were being hit and so once again, I was shooting at an immovable wall, getting no direct feedback.
I'm somewhat color blind and red is not a color that is good for me to read. Red on black, in the middle of a field, in bright or liquid sunshine is near-hopeless. I would hope that in the future the hit color would be yellow or white or better yet, something that can be selected by the individual.
For the LR team match we place the supplied Lenovo tablet so the shooter could see where he or she was hitting and I pulled out my Samsung Note Pro 12.2 tablet and adjusted the brightness to liking and went back to wind calling. I also made use of my weatherproof holder and I was glad I had bought the landscape version; it held my tablet nicely out of the rain, sleet and snow we got during the team matches. I also got very few delays with the Samsung, and I don't think I got a red X at all that day. On Saturday, I went back to the Lenovo and got a few red X and some delays in loading.
The network problems were due to having the access point set at the same channel or auto. My WiFi analyzer showed channel 6 being saturated whereas 1 was wide open and 11 had just a couple. The signal coverage was good, the channels needed some diversity.
I downloaded all my scores from the server later that day and stored them on my system and I think that is a great thing to have. I took some pictures of the targets and the microphones and will post them here later.
Bottom line, I like the ETs, takes some getting used to and you definitely need to pay attention, but they worked fine and provide a lot of usable info.
Joe R
Gold $$ Contributor
First of all I wasn't at Lodi and I have never used eTargets. I am a fan of electronic scoring and will greatly welcome it. However, a system that does not produce an actual target gives me great reservations. It may be the financial analyst in me, but where is the audit trail. Is everyone going to take a machine's decision? I wouldn't. How do I know that the machine is properly calibrated? What if someone crossfires, what then?
I would feel a whole lot more comfortable with an optical system that uses paper targets and produces scores, preferably in layers, so that a shooter can download them to his computer, study them and maybe learn something from them.
I do believe that electronic target scoring is inevitable, but I have my doubts this is going to be the system. I think when competing systems start showing up then it will be the time to start looking, but when there is only one choice it doesn't feel right to me. You're likely crossing from the leading edge to the bleeding (money) edge. YMMV.
Joe
I would feel a whole lot more comfortable with an optical system that uses paper targets and produces scores, preferably in layers, so that a shooter can download them to his computer, study them and maybe learn something from them.
I do believe that electronic target scoring is inevitable, but I have my doubts this is going to be the system. I think when competing systems start showing up then it will be the time to start looking, but when there is only one choice it doesn't feel right to me. You're likely crossing from the leading edge to the bleeding (money) edge. YMMV.
Joe
I see great potential in these "things" but plenty of fixable flaws still. I had my scorekeepers call the scores and glad I did that, I immediately noticed they had better reception than I did on the ground. I was also surprised how fast we all adapted to them and see them as a great equalizer when all the bugs are out. Fair play coming up soon, no more bad pullers or human errors in scoring. They don't get tired or distracted from their duties like a person does.
jkl
Silver $$ Contributor
I understand your point but you have to start somewhere. Look at the evolution of vinyl records to Cd's, 3 channels on your TV to 500, 1950's TV to a 72" flat screen LCD TV and your model T or jet airplanes. Somebody has to take the first step forward or we may be we should be shooting muzzle loaders scoring on parchment with quill pens.
Just saying. I own a SMT and enjoy how it works and most people that have shot on it will say the same.
John
Just saying. I own a SMT and enjoy how it works and most people that have shot on it will say the same.
John
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
Joe, those are good points. Let me express a few thoughts.
First off, I am not affiliated with SMT and do not speak for anyone by myself. This was my first exposure to ETs, but because I've been in IT for 45+ years, I take to technology like a fish to water. I used the system for the MR team match, then the LR individuals and the LR team match. I was using my own tablet for LR team match and when I was not shooting on Saturday, I was using my tablet to look at other targets and review stuff. I also spent some time with the SMT tech guy discussing the technology and its implementation and how it runs on Linux. That does not make me an expert in anything to do with this, but I have an understanding.
There is no paper audit trail. The targets are constantly raised and ready for shooting. The system is always accepting shots and it records the shots fired as long as they are supersonic at the target. Each shot is recorded on the Linux system with time, target number, the time differentials for the 8 microphones, the temperature (needed to calculate SOS as the only thing that affects SOS is temperature, (yeah, I know humidity can have a slight effect, but it's immaterial)) score, velocity, etc.
When there is a crossfire, it's quite similar to the way it works now. The scorer observes that the shooter fired a shot and nothing is displayed on the target. In other words, the shooter fired and missed the target. If it was a crossfire, the shooter/scorer pair of the target that received the extra shot will detect that a shot was recorded that was not fired by the shooter of that target. Just like we do now with manned targets. The offending shooter gets a 0 and the affected shooter does not get the shot recorded. Of course, if the two shots appear simultaneously, the affected shooter should get the higher score. This would only occur if it was difficult or impossible to determine when the errant shot came in. The line officers helped make the necessary corrections on the tablets.
The only paper trail is the scorer writing down the score as recorded by the system after each shot. That's not much of a backup, but you can record irregularities on there to be traced later.
A friend had a crossfire when he shot on the target next to his. There was no shooter on the target at that time, but the errant shot was recorded and so my friend knows that he did in fact shoot on the wrong target, like that's any consolation.
As for the download of the scores after the fact. We can do that now and I am in fact transferring my data to a spreadsheet for analysis. The one thing I have a problem with is that the generated PDF does not allow me to see all my shots properly as they conglomerate on the 10 and X and cover each other after a while. The 9s or worse, are all too visible, but perhaps that's enough. I did discuss with SMT the possibility of getting more useful data in terms of coordinates, the discussion continues.
Unlike you, I do believe this is a workable system. We just shot a very large match using this system and overall it worked quite well. I have no doubt there will be variations on this system and maybe different technologies in use, such as your optical dream. However, the acoustic system is neat in that it gives you the velocity of your bullet at the target, something that an optical system will be hard pressed to do. Also, the optical system would have to have a sensor placed in front of it, smack dab in the middle, that would expose it to incoming jacketed lead. The microphones are on the sides and are not in the incoming flight path.
The market is relatively small for such devices so, I would not hold my breath waiting for someone else to step up. Then again, now that someone has come up with a working system, it may spur someone else to try another method.
First off, I am not affiliated with SMT and do not speak for anyone by myself. This was my first exposure to ETs, but because I've been in IT for 45+ years, I take to technology like a fish to water. I used the system for the MR team match, then the LR individuals and the LR team match. I was using my own tablet for LR team match and when I was not shooting on Saturday, I was using my tablet to look at other targets and review stuff. I also spent some time with the SMT tech guy discussing the technology and its implementation and how it runs on Linux. That does not make me an expert in anything to do with this, but I have an understanding.
There is no paper audit trail. The targets are constantly raised and ready for shooting. The system is always accepting shots and it records the shots fired as long as they are supersonic at the target. Each shot is recorded on the Linux system with time, target number, the time differentials for the 8 microphones, the temperature (needed to calculate SOS as the only thing that affects SOS is temperature, (yeah, I know humidity can have a slight effect, but it's immaterial)) score, velocity, etc.
When there is a crossfire, it's quite similar to the way it works now. The scorer observes that the shooter fired a shot and nothing is displayed on the target. In other words, the shooter fired and missed the target. If it was a crossfire, the shooter/scorer pair of the target that received the extra shot will detect that a shot was recorded that was not fired by the shooter of that target. Just like we do now with manned targets. The offending shooter gets a 0 and the affected shooter does not get the shot recorded. Of course, if the two shots appear simultaneously, the affected shooter should get the higher score. This would only occur if it was difficult or impossible to determine when the errant shot came in. The line officers helped make the necessary corrections on the tablets.
The only paper trail is the scorer writing down the score as recorded by the system after each shot. That's not much of a backup, but you can record irregularities on there to be traced later.
A friend had a crossfire when he shot on the target next to his. There was no shooter on the target at that time, but the errant shot was recorded and so my friend knows that he did in fact shoot on the wrong target, like that's any consolation.
As for the download of the scores after the fact. We can do that now and I am in fact transferring my data to a spreadsheet for analysis. The one thing I have a problem with is that the generated PDF does not allow me to see all my shots properly as they conglomerate on the 10 and X and cover each other after a while. The 9s or worse, are all too visible, but perhaps that's enough. I did discuss with SMT the possibility of getting more useful data in terms of coordinates, the discussion continues.
Unlike you, I do believe this is a workable system. We just shot a very large match using this system and overall it worked quite well. I have no doubt there will be variations on this system and maybe different technologies in use, such as your optical dream. However, the acoustic system is neat in that it gives you the velocity of your bullet at the target, something that an optical system will be hard pressed to do. Also, the optical system would have to have a sensor placed in front of it, smack dab in the middle, that would expose it to incoming jacketed lead. The microphones are on the sides and are not in the incoming flight path.
The market is relatively small for such devices so, I would not hold my breath waiting for someone else to step up. Then again, now that someone has come up with a working system, it may spur someone else to try another method.
Last edited:
You can download a csv file with coordinates and velocities by choosing the file folder icon in the top left of the screen.
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
That's interesting. I was hoping to download a csv file, but when I opened the folder icon, all I got were displays similar to the ones we had when shooting, in other words, what that display looked like after shot 20. I was able to save these files as pdf on my smartphone because I had the popups enabled on it. I could not find a button to save as cvs. I will say that I am older and with eyes that have a difficult time reading the smartphone. I even asked Daniel Chisholm of SMT if there was a way to save as csv and he told me no. I explained why I would want a csv file and we further discussed the storage method it uses now.
I haven't tried snagging the LOG (.csv) file off the SMT server at WGC yet but I know it's available off my personal S2 system's yellow box server. Access privileges likely are different between single-user & multi-target system as their respective purposes are unique.
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
What Steve is describing is how it works on the individual portable G2 systems. The S10 servers (or whatever the configuration they had cobbled together for Lodi, pretty sure its a one-off) are a different matter entirely. Going back and getting your shot coordinates for an individual practice is different from when you have a full match going on.
Don't know why the match version of the SMT system does not allow competitors to download the csv file. Maybe a lack of storage space on the server?
Here's my take on the experience. I'll start with the negatives. They are two fold.
First is connectivity. It was like having the worst pit service you've ever had on every string. The thumb nails on the bottom were so you could see and maybe dope other targets I assume. They are not in real time because their uploads were as delayed as mine. Screen locked up, 'loading message', big red 'X' , etc..
At one point I was scoring and trying to refresh my tablet. The shooter could have shot a crossfire for all I know because he got off several shots while an RO was fixing my screen. I even scored a string where the seven second delay wasn't working on that particular target. The shooter spit them down fast and shot a clean. There is no point having a score keeper with ET's unless he's an IT guy. As a matter of fact, the score keeper doesn't need the button to select "go for record". The shooter is the one that decides that. He can push the button. It sucks to try to go for record and the score keeper can't push the button because 'his' tablet is 'loading'.
Second is software. This was not an actual representation of what we do. The little screen is cluttered with extraneous garbage. I know some technophiles loved it but in my opinion it should be as close as possible to the traditional game. This resembled a video game. The target should be full screen and the same size for everybody, no zooming. When a shot goes through, I want a while spindle showing me where it hit. On the next shot, the last spindle disappears and seven seconds later, the new spindle location appears. The score should be displayed, preferably in the corner of the screen but not before the spindle appears. I'll admit the velocity data is cool but Just because the data can be put on the screen doesn't mean it should be. I'd like to be able to plug in a thumb drive or SD card when its my turn and save my data when logging out. I could review it later but it wouldn't take away from the traditional game while shooting. The thumb nails on the bottom are fairly representative of looking at targets in a scope if the connectivity issues are fixed.
Now the positives. No time spent on pit changes.
Jeff
First is connectivity. It was like having the worst pit service you've ever had on every string. The thumb nails on the bottom were so you could see and maybe dope other targets I assume. They are not in real time because their uploads were as delayed as mine. Screen locked up, 'loading message', big red 'X' , etc..
At one point I was scoring and trying to refresh my tablet. The shooter could have shot a crossfire for all I know because he got off several shots while an RO was fixing my screen. I even scored a string where the seven second delay wasn't working on that particular target. The shooter spit them down fast and shot a clean. There is no point having a score keeper with ET's unless he's an IT guy. As a matter of fact, the score keeper doesn't need the button to select "go for record". The shooter is the one that decides that. He can push the button. It sucks to try to go for record and the score keeper can't push the button because 'his' tablet is 'loading'.
Second is software. This was not an actual representation of what we do. The little screen is cluttered with extraneous garbage. I know some technophiles loved it but in my opinion it should be as close as possible to the traditional game. This resembled a video game. The target should be full screen and the same size for everybody, no zooming. When a shot goes through, I want a while spindle showing me where it hit. On the next shot, the last spindle disappears and seven seconds later, the new spindle location appears. The score should be displayed, preferably in the corner of the screen but not before the spindle appears. I'll admit the velocity data is cool but Just because the data can be put on the screen doesn't mean it should be. I'd like to be able to plug in a thumb drive or SD card when its my turn and save my data when logging out. I could review it later but it wouldn't take away from the traditional game while shooting. The thumb nails on the bottom are fairly representative of looking at targets in a scope if the connectivity issues are fixed.
Now the positives. No time spent on pit changes.
Jeff
Joe, when tested the SMT target will plot the shot within a mm or 2mm at most for the actual value. The thing is the calibration just picks where on the optical target the center of the X ring is. The actual target dimensions are stored within the files themselves. We have multiple f-class shooters at Atterbury some of whom shot really well up at Lodi this year. Accuracy was a concern of theirs and after shooting a whole season on the SMTs they aren't concerned about that anymore. Before you form an opinion against you need to shoot on them.
B Nettesheim
Gold $$ Contributor
The system at lodi was put together with many hours from many members along with the SMT crew and is far from "cobbled" together. Brian Nettesheim
They did a great job I thought. I was pretty happy we didn't have a train wreck during this, that says a lot if it was you looking down the barrel on this project. Gutsy pioneers are my favorite guys!
Last edited:
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.