Importance: Caliber Vs. Wind Reading Skills

[Turbulent Turtle]

(snip)
One of the reasons I bring this up, besides my own ravenous desire to learn and become a better marksman, is something that has been rolling around in my head for some time. I have several friends that are crossing over from sling to FTR and watching these guys who have shot sling and irons for 30+ years come on to the F-Class scene (mostly due to eye sight and physical limitations) has been very interesting because they can truly read the wind like very few F-class shooters I've ever seen.

Well the above was the genesis of F-class; named after George Farquharson, a long time Canadian fullbore shooter getting on in age petitioned the DCRA to allow the use of bipod and scope to make up for failing eyesight and weakening muscles. He wanted to continue playing with his friends. The rest, as they say, is history (yet still being written.)

We have many excellent sling shooters at the club and I talk with them quite a bit about the differences between Match rifles and F-TR. My background is fullbore and Palma from decades back and I got into F-class before it was sanctioned by the NRA. F-class has evolved a great deal since Farkie started it and it has reached the point where some sling shooters are actually reluctant to try it. I discuss the level of handloading precision needed in F-TR along with the rifles and it's a little scary. Also, you drive a match rifle by adjusting the sights for each shot because you can only favor a little bit as you break the shot. It took me quite a while to realize you do not want to constantly mess with the scope in F-class. There were many cases in Raton where I was holding at the edge of the black or even at the edge of the paper to shoot 10s and Xs. You don't do that with match rifles.

The folks who successfully make the transition from Irons to F-class are also able to make the adjustments in the shooting. It's not that difficult, but it's another mindset.

 

[Hombre0321]

bayou, Actually the beginning of F-Class was F-Open. F/TR and the bipod came a few years after the sport was started.

RS

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Oh really? So in your world where does the F come from?

 

[SEB-USA]

IF I am perfect (which I am far from) in reading wind, caliber doesn't really make a difference (As long as my caliber choice is capable of staying in the "X") because, I will get the wind right every time.
IF I am a perfect wind reader then I would know when to shoot and when to not, how far to hold off, etc.....
That person would be unbeatable.
I really wouldn't worry about BC, just about the most accurate bullet. WHY? I am a perfect wind reader.

Are you really talking caliber or cartridge design?

I am asking very simply, what is more important, caliber choice or ones ability to read the wind. We all know that certain calibers can, do and will shoot better than others. And there are some that have been proven to shoot as good as others which are proclaimed to be the magic pill.

The point of this is to have an open conversation regarding what is TRULY more important. Caliber choice or wind.

 

[TonyR]

IF I am perfect (which I am far from) in reading wind, caliber doesn't really make a difference (As long as my caliber choice is capable of staying in the "X") because, I will get the wind right every time.
IF I am a perfect wind reader then I would know when to shoot and when to not, how far to hold off, etc.....
That person would be unbeatable.
I really wouldn't worry about BC, just about the most accurate bullet. WHY? I am a perfect wind reader.

Are you really talking caliber or cartridge design?

I am asking very simply, what is more important, caliber choice or ones ability to read the wind. We all know that certain calibers can, do and will shoot better than others. And there are some that have been proven to shoot as good as others which are proclaimed to be the magic pill.

The point of this is to have an open conversation regarding what is TRULY more important. Caliber choice or wind.

Caliber becomes important because no one is a perfect wind reader and caliber with less drift for a given amount of wind will result in a smaller error on the target that a caliber with more drift for the same amount of wind.

 

[SEB-USA]

I completely agree that no one is a perfect wind reader.
My post was from a unreal theoretical position, "If I am perfect in reading wind."
In a sense I feel this thread is circular is some ways.
You should choose cartridge and total rifle/rest that you can manage that is going to give as many advantages as possible while working on developing your skill set. If you want to be competitive, to do anything else would be foolish IMO.

 

[C. Collins]

Bottom line is, do you think a good wind reader with a 6mm will beat guys with 7mm's that read the wind as good as him?

[br]
No.

Possibly, I beleive

[br]
Take a break from winter, come to Phoenix in February, bring your 6mm and take your best shot. You'll have plenty of 7's and .30's available to beat.

First off lets get the obvious out of the way. You are much better at reading the wind than I am. Second my brain could be frozen from the U.P. Winters, buy the plane ticket and I'll take the trip to be humbled at the range.

 

[Steve Blair]

First off lets get the obvious out of the way. You are much better at reading the wind than I am. Second my brain could be frozen from the U.P. Winters, buy the plane ticket and I'll take the trip to be humbled at the range.

[br]
I am not the only shooter who will be at Ben Avery. There will be a wide variety, all experience levels, some from as far away as Canada. It is a great tournament and very well run. Come on down and see why so many snowbirds migrate to Arizona in the winter. [br]
The point is that Ben Avery can provide the conditions that make many experienced F-Class shooters choose the highest B.C. bullet they can get. Western ranges tend to be open, with relatively unimpeded wind flow. At a recent Camp Pendleton Mid Range Regional, I had 4 MOA on a .300 WSM shooting 230 Hybrids at ~2865, at 600 yards. That is a lot of windage for that bullet. I don't think a 6mm would have fared well in those conditions. Granted, it was a windy day, but they do happen.

 

[dragman]

Good conditions it's 80% to the wind reader and 20% to the bigger caliber and those % change as the conditions get worse. You could be the best wind reader in the world and if your shooting a 6BR at 1000 and the conditions are BAD someone shooting a 300RUM with heavy bullets that is average is gonna win.

 

[ar15topgun]

A magnum caliber will shoot inside of a non-magnum caliber in like wind conditions but can the shooter consistantly handle the added recoil? If not then the magnum caliber is of no benefit and will probably hurt his scores in the long run. Me personally I hate recoil so I will just sharpen my wind reading skills. Now if I could see the wind like the late Dale Earnhardt or the current Kent Reeves...

 

[Hoser]

Without any doubt in my wind being able to read the wind is much more important than the caliber you shoot.

I am shooting a 6CM and 115s. I am shooting inside 6.5x284s without all the recoil. But I still have to watch the wind.

Even guys shooting the magical 7s can still get caught with their pants down if they miss a wind change.

I shoot my 338 Lapua out past 1,000 often down at Whittington Center. Those long 300s get pushed around just like any other bullet.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Without any doubt in my wind being able to read the wind is much more important than the caliber you shoot.

I am shooting a 6CM and 115s. I am shooting inside 6.5x284s without all the recoil. But I still have to watch the wind.

Even guys shooting the magical 7s can still get caught with their pants down if they miss a wind change.

I shoot my 338 Lapua out past 1,000 often down at Whittington Center. Those long 300s get pushed around just like any other bullet.

I'm going to have to disagree with you. I know it is extremely important to be able to read the wind, however, you also need to shoot a caliber that allows you to leverage your wind reading skills to be able to make it into the winners circle.

I refuse to think that F-Open shooters as a whole are better wind readers than F-T/R shooters, yet, T/R shooters generally have lower scores. I believe the difference is made by the calibers shot in each category.

I can hold my own in 1,000 yard club matches with my 6.5x47 Lapua. I have beat more than a few 7mm's with it, but I would not expect to do well with it at a National level competition where the winds are tough and the competition even tougher.

 

[PRECISIONWELDING01]

Once you figure there is no magic bullet .do your job shooting and read the wind you have it made

 

[Hoser]

Caliber is a factor without a doubt. Shooting a higher BC bullet does not make you a better shooter, it gives you more wiggle room for errors.

I figure if I have a crappy hit on paper or miss a chunk of steel at distance, it was me not reading the wind. Shooting a 180gn 7mm Hybrid might have got me the hit, but the recoil might not have let me see exactly where it went.

 

[AlanPF]

...I refuse to think that F-Open shooters as a whole are better wind readers than F-T/R shooters, yet, T/R shooters generally have lower scores. I believe the difference is made by the calibers shot in each category...

That's a good illustration Erik. I remember the 800 on day 2 of the recent FCWC at Raton. Over 100 of the F-Open shooters cleaned it, whereas only 3 of F/TR did. Now F-Open may have been favoured with the relays, but not enough to make that difference. My theory is that conditions were good enough for the 7mms to hold the 5 ring, but not good enough to prevent nearly all 308s from dropping at least one point. In windy conditions at the longs, wind-reading skills are king, but in a field of good wind-readers, high BC bullets will nearly always prevail.

Alan

 

[Steve Blair]

Here is the kind of calculation that some F-Class shooters make regarding B.C. and scores. A 115 DTAC @ 3200 fps MV, has a 1000 yard, 10 mph deflection of ~56.9". A 180 Hybrid @ 2940 fps MV, has a 1000 yard, 10 mph deflection of ~48.5". That is a difference of 8.4" or ~.8 MOA. While it doesn't sound like much at 1000, let's examine what effect it might have. Let's say that both shooters are phenomenal and can read wind to an error of 3/4 mph, hold to ± 1" when breaking the shot and always hold waterline elevation. The F-Class 10 ring is 10" on the LR-FC 1000 yard target center. So, the 6mm shooter has a possible error of ~5.3" and the 7mm shooter has a possible error of ~4.6". One is 9, the other a 10. [br]
There are tactics to minimize this effect and the 6mm shooter will certainly not miss every shot. But, the 7mm shooter will not drop a point here and there, gaining an advantage in the aggregate. As Erik noted earlier, F-Class is an agg game. If your caliber and bullet choice predispose you to drop points occasionally, it might not hurt in club matches. It will hurt when you come up against outstanding shooters whose errors cost them less. There is no such thing as a perfect wind reader. Some folks do better in specific conditions than others. At times, the error level cited above will be much more. That is when ballistics will help you to save points. [br]
There is a limit to how much recoil can be successfully managed on the rest or bipod and that must also be factored into the equation. It took me months of effort to become comfortable shooting 230 Hybrids in my .300 WSM. I used every trick I know to improve tracking and minimize disturbance. Until several weeks before leaving for Raton, I was still considering taking my .284 Shehane, a proven performer with much less and more manageable recoil. If a given shooter does not want to make that effort, dislikes recoil, or thinks there is insufficient benefit, those are valid considerations. They will give up a little in one aspect and must work harder in another. As has been said earlier, ballistics are no substitute for wind reading. Likewise, wind reading alone will not give you an advantage over similarly skilled shooters with ballistically superior cartridges. [br]
*** Corrected error - sorry ***

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

Here is the kind of calculation that some F-Class shooters make regarding B.C. and scores. A 115 DTAC @ 3200 fps MV, has a 1000 yard, 10 mph deflection of ~56.9". A 180 Hybrid @ 2940 fps MV, has a 1000 yard, 10 mph deflection of ~48.5". That is a difference of 8.4" or ~.8 MOA. While it doesn't sound like much at 1000, let's examine what effect it might have. Let's say that both shooters are phenomenal and can read wind to an error of 3/4 mph, hold to ± 1" when breaking the shot and always hold waterline elevation. The F-Class 10 ring is 10" on the LR-FC 1000 yard target center. So, the 6mm shooter has a possible error of ~5.3" and the 7mm shooter has a possible error of ~4.6". One is 9, the other a 10. [br]
There are tactics to minimize this effect and the 6mm shooter will certainly not miss every shot. But, the 7mm shooter will not drop a point here and there, gaining an advantage in the aggregate. As Erik noted earlier, F-Class is an agg game. If your caliber and bullet choice predispose you to drop points occasionally, it might not hurt in club matches. It will hurt when you come up against outstanding shooters whose errors cost them less. There is no such thing as a perfect wind reader. Some folks do better in specific conditions than others. At times, the error level cited above will be much more. That is when ballistics will help you to save points. [br]
There is a limit to how much recoil can be successfully managed on the rest or bipod and that must also be factored into the equation. It took me months of effort to become comfortable shooting 230 Hybrids in my .300 WSM. I used every trick I know to improve tracking and minimize disturbance. Until several weeks before leaving for Raton, I was still considering taking my .284 Shehane, a proven performer with much less and more manageable recoil. If a given shooter does not want to make that effort, dislikes recoil, or thinks there is insufficient benefit, those are valid considerations. They will give up a little in one aspect and must work harder in another. As has been said earlier, ballistics are no substitute for wind reading. Likewise, wind reading alone will not give you an advantage over similarly skilled shooters with ballistically superior cartridges. [br]
*** Corrected error - sorry ***

GREAT post Steve!!

 

[kyreloader]

Hoser,

Are you shooting your DTAC at 3300fps or 115g Bergers at 3275 fps?

According to JBM, that is the velocity need to shoot inside the 6.5x284 shooting 140g Hybrids at 2950 fps.

That is smoking, if so.

Without any doubt in my wind being able to read the wind is much more important than the caliber you shoot.

I am shooting a 6CM and 115s. I am shooting inside 6.5x284s without all the recoil. But I still have to watch the wind.

Even guys shooting the magical 7s can still get caught with their pants down if they miss a wind change.

I shoot my 338 Lapua out past 1,000 often down at Whittington Center. Those long 300s get pushed around just like any other bullet.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Without any doubt in my wind being able to read the wind is much more important than the caliber you shoot.

I am shooting a 6CM and 115s. I am shooting inside 6.5x284s without all the recoil. But I still have to watch the wind.

Even guys shooting the magical 7s can still get caught with their pants down if they miss a wind change.

I shoot my 338 Lapua out past 1,000 often down at Whittington Center. Those long 300s get pushed around just like any other bullet.

If that's the case, then why do you shoot 115's out of your CM? Wouldn't 70-85 gr bullets have less recoil?

 

[savagedasher]

Mine gets pulled around by the negative pressure. Larry