I'd like to see a new F class Category. "F-TAC"

[Andy Legg]

For a "Club" Match (Golden Triangle Gun Club @ Beaumont, Texas), we have worked with a few PRS guys allowing them to shoot with us at our Monthly Mid-Range Prone (600 yard match). We have requested the Brakes be Removed or we would place them wayyyy at the end of the firing line. If we found ourselves with quite a brakes few showing up, I believe we might add a relay (our club matches are usually a pretty small group with only 2 relays...so we could add a 3rd relay which may be necessary anyhow due to the increased participation).

We tend to be very accommodating to our club members (allowing folks/newer shooters to shoot Out of Competition) even with a rifle that doesn't really fit into a particular class. As long as they have ammo and a good 100 yard zero (we can assist with the 600 yard come-ups).

The hope would be to promote marksmanship training (Mission of our Non-Profit Gun Club) and maybe even pick up a new competitive shooter (F-Class or AR-Tactical).

If they happened to show up for an NRA Registered Match or some type of "Big" event with a muzzle break.....I believe the only way we could accommodate would be by adding a relay or asking them to come back to a Monthly Club Match. That way we would not negativity impact the serious competitors.

 

[drop_point]

Dude,

You can bitch and moan and whine all you want. Muzzle brakes aren't going to be allowed in proper F Class competition. And rightfully so. The blast is obnoxious and building a "shield box", as you described, is asinine for F Class. I have been watching this thread and your ever-increasing zeal and pomposity, combined with the attempted mic drop statements, like "sports evolve or they die", are really annoying.

Rset put it perfectly. I am sure that he speaks for most of the F Class fraternity, most of whom stay out of threads like these. I relish the opportunity to defend F Class from anyone trying to bastardize it.

As has been stated several times in this thread, play by the rules or go do something else.

Peace, out

I don't care if the statement that sports evolve annoys you or not. It is true. F-Class itself is a result of evolution. I haven't "bitched and moaned". However, I have been insulted more than once. I didn't think this was that kind of place. Usually it isn't. Shooting both PRS and F-Class, I've been surrounded by nothing but the nicest of people.

And as I've said before, I shoot BOTH with two separate rifles. I recognize not everybody has that opportunity.

 

[rijndael]

I didn't think this was that kind of place. Usually it isn't.

It is about muzzle brakes. This isn’t the first thread about it.

I’m just glad the guys at my local ranges are more accommodating than people here.

 

[saunaking]

Informal club matches that are more for fun and introduction to the sport is where someone should go to find out if the sport is for them. Bring your rifle with a brake and get squaded at the end of the line or a relay with people that have common equipment. We do that at our Monday night league matches.

NRA matches are not the place to have someone show up that wants to shoot non-approved equipment. If I show up with a benchrest gun that has a 4" forearm, I don't meet the rules that have been set for F-class. Until our government pulls their heads out of their asses and make suppressors standard equipment for hunting and shooting, the rules regarding brakes need to be followed for NRA/CMP matches.

I understand that most guys with young families can't afford top end equipment for two disciplines, but until that day comes, choose which one you want to participate in. You can see the trace of your bullet with a proper rifle set up for F-class and don't need to worry about a brake. I have brakes on some rifles, and warn people that want to sit close at the range, that the muzzle blast isn't pleasant. PRS, with one guy shooting at a time is a lot different than 15 guys laying side by side and shooting a 20 shot string (but you already know that if you shoot open or ftr). I wear hearing aids already, don't need to be completly deaf.

 

[CharlieNC]

Much of the lack of accomodation is due to the design of the range. A roof, front baffle, and crowded firing line mean a muzzle brake will cause as great disturbance to fellow shooters. All of my non-Fclass rifles have brakes and I would not even consider shooting it in these circumstances. If the use of a brake was not disruptive then no one would care.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Does F-Class have a probationary period for new rule similar to Benchrest?

If it does, why not vote in the use of Brakes on a one year probation, and after that, take a vote to see if the rules on Brakes and possibly increasing the cartridge choice should become permanent.

That is how new rules on major Course of Fire and Equipment changes are done in the NBRSA.

I do not shoot F-Class, just following the discussion.

 

[SteveOak]

never really saw this as an issue?

I have been hit on the face with copper shards from a shooter beside me with a muzzle brake.

 

[Matthew Schwartzkopf]

Does F-Class have a probationary period for new rule similar to Benchrest?

If it does, why not vote in the use of Brakes on a one year probation, and after that, take a vote to see if the rules on Brakes and possibly increasing the cartridge choice should become permanent.

That is how new rules on major Course of Fire and Equipment changes are done in the NBRSA.

I do not shoot F-Class, just following the discussion.

That is not how it is done in the NBRSA. The board may say that they will do a probationary period for a rule, but in the end we all know that the NBRSA Board is just going to do what they want, and they are going to cater to the US Team. It what has been done over and over again.

Would you want muzzle breaks to be allowed in an NBRSA short range group match?

 

[rardoin]

The way I hear it Ftr was at one time something like "hunting rifle" class. Basically, there were club matches all over encouraging people to bring their hunting rifle with a Harris bipod to increase numbers. Then it morfed into what it is today which has nothing to do with hunting rifles.

I think you are basically saying the same thing. More participation is a good thing. Let's make a competition for what the people already have to shoot.

You should be asking the people you want to show up, not the people who are already there. Because the people already there aren't going to want any changes.

That would be incorrect as to the birth of F-TR. However, I agree that broadening rules to allow classes shooting more popular rifles would be a good thing.

 

[Jdne5b]

I know I don’t want to shoot next to, or score for someone shooting a braked PRS rifle under a covered line, and probably not even an uncovered line. Even double plugged the hearing damage risk is likely real. Yes I have one, not it doesn’t change my mind. We allow braked bench guns in a bench class we run and even the round style isn’t fun to be close to.

However, I am generally in favor of assessing the needs/wants for new division rules that grow the sport, not cannibalize other divisions where people hop to the new division just to win a medal.

 

[jackieschmidt]

That is not how it is done in the NBRSA. The board may say that they will do a probationary period for a rule, but in the end we all know that the NBRSA Board is just going to do what they want, and they are going to cater to the US Team. It what has been done over and over again.

Would you want muzzle breaks to be allowed in an NBRSA short range group match?

Three of the last major changes in the NBRSA, those being the adoption of Varmint for Score for Registered Competition, the allowing of Tuners in Registered Competition, and the relaxing of the stock and barrel profile rules in Sporter were all voted on in the National Meeting after a probationary period.

https://www.nbrsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/rule_book_nbrsa_201901311001.pages.pdf

page 52. 5.5

If the members present would have voted no, these changes would not have been implemented.

 

[rardoin]

I know I don’t want to shoot next to, or score for someone shooting a braked PRS rifle under a covered line, and probably not even an uncovered line. Even double plugged the hearing damage risk is likely real. Yes I have one, not it doesn’t change my mind. We allow braked bench guns in a bench class we run and even the round style isn’t fun to be close to.

However, I am generally in favor of assessing the needs/wants for new division rules that grow the sport, not cannibalize other divisions where people hop to the new division just to win a medal.

I don't like shooting next to braked rifles either. At one match that allowed such rifles, a 4x8 sheet of plywood held up with braces was placed as a partition between the F-class and Tac class competitors. It was pretty effective even under a covered firing line. On an unimproved line with bare ground, such as Ben Avery or Raton, I would not care for the potential spray of particles in my eyes or optics.

 

[Ruger15151]

Then you've alienated about 90% of PRS shooters.

As a match director, I always encourage ideas that allow new shooters to be part of F-Class matches. Currently, there are not enough PRS shooters coming to our local matches to make a separate class so we are looking to create a "precision class" where guys with various calibers can keep the setup they have with a muzzle break removed. F-Class shooters with $8k+ rifles are not going to want to be blasted by the guy next to them who is shooting with a muzzle break. If a prs shooter is serious about shooting at F-class events, they just need to develop a second load that shoots well without their muzzle break. Cortina makes a EC Tuner break where the the muzzle portion can be removed and the tuner portion can be screwed directly to the muzzle break threads. He also make several adapters as well. Seems like they can easily adapt.

 

[Ruger15151]

Then you've alienated about 90% of PRS shooters.

Those 90% of shooters aren't interested in shooting at F-Class matches anyway so what's the argument?

 

[swd]

Our club is always welcoming to new shooters. We try to tolerate brakes but it's nice if you tell us at sign up you have one so we can squad you down at the end. It's a 2 way street. The guys saying they don't want to take a brake off and re zero or tune but expect everyone else to just put up with them are full of themselves. If your not willing to make one extra trip to fine tune then I question your dedication to wanting to shoot along side guys in discipline where brakes aren't allowed. And you can re zero at 1K during sighters, we do it all the time with new barrels with zero rounds down them. The "I want to play your game but change the rules just for me because I don't want do anything but come shoot" is just amazing.. Theres nothing wrong with having a load and zero for brake on and off. Now you can play 2 games with one rifle.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

I will go ahead and cast my vote, NO

 

[Dgd6mm]

The last 1000 yard F Class Match I shot I shot my 6br PRS rifle with the brake removed. I finished 3rd that day, I enjoyed myself and did not do anything special to shoot that competitively. I decided to leave my longe range. 308 FTR rifle at home. If I shot another 1000 yard F Class Match tomorrow I'd shoot my 6br PRS rifle, minus muzzle brake. I do use a Harris bipod and squeeze bag.

 

[drop_point]

Those 90% of shooters aren't interested in shooting at F-Class matches anyway so what's the argument?

You'd be surprised. When I shot PRS, the local club allowed a division for PRS rifles. That got me to shooting F-Class and a dedicated rifle.

 

[memilanuk]

If a club has enough interest from its local shooters to make that work, great. We certainly get all types showing up to our 600yd practices. But very, very few of the 'Others' actually show up to the full 3x600 Approved matches, even when (for years) I had a 'Tactical/Other' class that encompassed pretty much everything outside the NRA rules. I just don't think there's as much interest (from either side) in cross-over as you maybe think there is.

Every few years, someone comes up with the notion of a 'new' factory or Tactical category for F-class, convinced that if you build it, all these shooters just waiting in the wings will flock to the matches. Historically though, it never happens. There might be a short term surge at a few local clubs, but it just never amounts to anything. That might not be what you want to hear, but that's what a lot of people here have seen, over and over again. Hence the... less than positive... response.

Could this time, right now, be the time it actually comes to fruition? Could be. I certainly wouldn't mind if it did. But I'm not going to hold my breath on it either.

 

[swd]

We keep on having the same argument.

It isn't muzzle brakes. It is somebody showing up with a rifle and gear that is not part of the cool kids club.

It took me all of a half hour to screw some plywood together and make two shields that I place on the outside of my lane. I even painted them. It still wasn't good enough.

I changed my whole attitude. I worked the pits harder than anyone, did range cleanup, brought a cooler of ice & water bottles big enough to slake the thirst of an army. I even bought a bunch of gear that I did not want to support an event where I couldn't even score because my rifle wasn't up to their standard. I tried all of this for an entire season, without ever complaining or fighting back. I just nodded my head and ate humble pie. It still wasn't enough.

It is being different and daring to show up at their sacrosanct event. I have given up on ever shooting BR. So have my friends. We created an event just for us as an "add-on" shooting for best groups at range before a PRS event.

I spend just as much time developing a load and tuning my rifle as the next guy, I don't want to change the harmonics of my rifle adding and subtracting weight from the most critical area. As far as running without a brake? Have fun spotting those short and mid range shots.

I refuse to conform just for the sake of sparing feelings and prejudices. They can enjoy their hobby by themselves until it is gone due to lack of new members; or, until they change the rules and attitudes to include a broader range of people and gear.

Simple as.

I don't doubt that are some clubs where "the good ol' boys" rule the roost, and I'm sorry to hear that, but in general you couldn't be more wrong. We could absolutely care less about being different. Show up with an XP100 or a Nagant painted hot pink with rainbows and unicorns shot off a mono pod or a bone stock big box store hunting rifle with a 3x9, we don't care. We just don't like or want muzzle blast being directed right at us. It's annoying and abusive. Many of us have hearing loss and are trying to save what little we still have. And many younger guys shooting brakes should think about that for themselves later in life. Many 1K lines are covered and amplify the muzzle blast and it can be deafening even with hearing protection doubled up and brakes just magnify the noise and sometimes even more importantly the pressure level. It's as simple as that.

But as said in another post we want new shooters and try to be tolerant and welcome guys with brakes to shoot with us. if you want to keep shooting club level F Class just be respectful to your fellow shooter and take the brake off.