ICFRA FTR chamber spec rules limits the dimensions of the chamber to the maximum dimensions prescribed by SAAMI (and CIP). From previous threads on this forum, it is clear that smaller dimensions on the neck, web or throat (that is not smaller than the bullet diameter) is not a concern. Am I correct in assuming this establishes the intent/spirit of the rule: that is to prohibit an "improved" chamber with greater case capacity? Or am I missing something else? Please enlighten me.
ICFRA FTR chamber spec rule
- Thread starter swc123
- Start date
That was pretty much how we looked at it for the 2017 FCWC in Ottawa. We had a minimum headspace gauge made that only contacted at the shoulder datum and a SAAMI max dimension case gauge made to drop fired cases into.
The logic was that the use of these two gauges effectively created a bracket that reasonably defined the max/min of a 308W.
The logic was that the use of these two gauges effectively created a bracket that reasonably defined the max/min of a 308W.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
There was some discussion of the neck clearance spec before he FCWC in 17(the SAAMI is .3442), but as Scotty notes above the Canadians didn't measure that for minimums.
At least one past (possibly) present member of a US team (not F class) that shot in either NZ or AU (I forget) has noted that some of the team got .344 neck reamers for the exact reason that they were concerned that they would get measured and fail tech. (that's a long way to fly to get DQd on a tech spec)
FWIW, my reamer is a .342. I don't worry about necks. In 8 yrs I've not split a neck yet.
There are a whole lot of 308 shooters out there that will tell you that there isn't any reason to shoot with less than a .342 neck on a 308. That is a no turn demin for Lapua brass.
As loaded 308s in Lapua run about .337 to .338 od, if you get a neck tighter than a .342 you are either going to have to shoot WW brass. (Loaded WW will run about .336 od) or turn all of your brass.
Granted, there are a lot of shooters who do turn, but I'm not one of them. My rifles shoot as well as or better than most and I honestly can't see that turning would improve my targets at either mid range or long range.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Sure, I think that's pretty obvious.
The reasoning is that we are all running the same chambering. The chamber checkers are there to make sure someone isn't running some kind of blown out 308 to get more capacity or some other modified case.
One of the things the Canadians were concerned with was someone changing the shoulder angle, something similar to an SLR to get a 308 with a 30* shoulder that would still chamber in a SAAMI chamber, that's why their go-gauge was made to the datum line minimum. So, if the capacity is the same but the demins aren't spec then it's still not legal.
The NRA rule says:
"A rifle limited to .223 Remington or .308 Winchester or their commercial and/or metrification equivalents. Chamber dimensions must not exceed the maximum SAAMI or CIP specifications. Bore, groove, and throat dimensions may be selected to suit bullets used. There is no restriction on bullet weight"
F class rules start on page 67
F class rules start on page 67
Thank you for that XTR, especially the quote of the NRA rule (which is similar to most countries and ICFRA rules).
This causes a conundrum in my view, the intent of the rule is undeniably to limit the case dimension/case capacity by specifying the maximum case dimensions, but then in direct contradiction, allows "larger useable case volume" by not limiting throat dimensions with regard to the resulting maximum overall length of the loaded cartridge. Take for example a 230gr Berger Hybrid loaded to an AOL of 2.810" (the max SAAMI length) versus what is currently used/allowed(?) with longer throating, say for example an AOL of 3.150", 2 completely different animals, yet both are called .308Win.
What gives?
This causes a conundrum in my view, the intent of the rule is undeniably to limit the case dimension/case capacity by specifying the maximum case dimensions, but then in direct contradiction, allows "larger useable case volume" by not limiting throat dimensions with regard to the resulting maximum overall length of the loaded cartridge. Take for example a 230gr Berger Hybrid loaded to an AOL of 2.810" (the max SAAMI length) versus what is currently used/allowed(?) with longer throating, say for example an AOL of 3.150", 2 completely different animals, yet both are called .308Win.
What gives?
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
The limitation is on the case, not the OAL of the loaded cartridge, and the useable case volume for a 230 and a 155 is the same. One is just longer, the case volume hasn't changed.
At some point in the game the F class founders either didn't consider or more likely decided that they didn't want F-TR to be limited to 156gr bullets like the Full Bore guys and modified the wording to allow any bullet. Now I'll grant you that at the time they did that the 175SMK was about the best 308 bullet out there. Berger didn't get the 185 on the market until the early 2000s. In the end the case capacity is what it is.
A few yrs ago there were some ideas floated to limit bullet weight, but it didn't gain much traction. More rules just bog the system down, it just makes one more thing for the MD to have to check.
There was a time in the history of Target Rifle competition where you had to shoot issued ammo.
There is no conundrum, it's the ruleset we shoot with, and it's working pretty well. If you want to shoot F-TR get a reamer with a .170ish freebore and load 185s or 200s .015 off the lands and go to the range.
At some point in the game the F class founders either didn't consider or more likely decided that they didn't want F-TR to be limited to 156gr bullets like the Full Bore guys and modified the wording to allow any bullet. Now I'll grant you that at the time they did that the 175SMK was about the best 308 bullet out there. Berger didn't get the 185 on the market until the early 2000s. In the end the case capacity is what it is.
A few yrs ago there were some ideas floated to limit bullet weight, but it didn't gain much traction. More rules just bog the system down, it just makes one more thing for the MD to have to check.
There was a time in the history of Target Rifle competition where you had to shoot issued ammo.
There is no conundrum, it's the ruleset we shoot with, and it's working pretty well. If you want to shoot F-TR get a reamer with a .170ish freebore and load 185s or 200s .015 off the lands and go to the range.
It is my understanding a number of years ago a US Palma team in England had their chambers checked with a dummy round. The test round wouldn't chamber because of undersize necks.
The Brits had a proper size neck reamer and opened up the necks, or the rifles were disqualified.
Steve Bair
The Brits had a proper size neck reamer and opened up the necks, or the rifles were disqualified.
Steve Bair
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Steve, I think that is the reason that we had the discussions well in advance before the 17 FCWC in Canada, and I hope that will continue in the future so that the teams and competitors don't get surprised. It would be a long flight back from South Africa if you got surprised and your chamber got you DQd. I know after the last round I have been making sure my smith cuts my new chambers .002 longer than SAAMI minimum. I have one chamber from before that discussion that is cut to minimum that my not have passed on the gauge test.
I don't think I'd be too far wrong to guess that there aren't many (or any) guys with .344 necks on their reamers today. Most of the people I've talked to .342 is the norm.
I don't think I'd be too far wrong to guess that there aren't many (or any) guys with .344 necks on their reamers today. Most of the people I've talked to .342 is the norm.
Don't forget the Canadians were shooting that class too until the ICFRA rules were formulated.
Not really. It’s almost entirely a self-policing sport until you get to the very top levels of competition, and the vast majority of competitors will follow whatever rules are in place. The ones who won’t will find a way to cheat regardless of the rules. With a limited bullet weight rule, an MD wouldn’t need to check bullet weights any more than he needs to check to make sure F-TR shooters aren’t shooting 7-08 in necked down Palma brass in matches without the rule.
I’d love to see bullet weight rules in place in US matches. I think the contest if shooting skill is way more interesting than the contest of ballistics.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
I don't think that F class is a ballistics competition on any level. In today's F-TR competition nearly all of the competitors run the same bullet (Berger 200.20x), a few run the 200 Hybrid, which is so close to the 20-x as to be almost identical, and fewer still run the 215Hyb, but the 215s at reasonable velocities are so near to the 200-20x that most of us don't find them worth the minimal increase (if any) in wind drift. There are some few shooters running the 185s, but not many. It took us a few yrs of development but I think we are approaching the limits of what can be done launching a bullet from a 308 case.
I've experimented with high twist barrels and at least three of the high BC bullets out there today, and what I've found is that none of them will achieve the precision required for F -TR. You lose more points in the corners than you make up for with the higher BC. I do sometimes insist on doing things my own way, but I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person who has tried them, and as far as I know nobody was shooting them at Raton this yr. This is a case study in leave it alone and it will find it's balance point.
If US Palma wants to implement a bullet restriction that's on them. I don't shoot Palma and have no idea what is going on there, but F-TR certainly doesn't need one.
Rules are only as good as they are police
This is one that can work
This is one that can work
Warren Dean
Team Savage F-TR
It already has a name and it's not a new class....F-Standard. The Aussies still shoot it.
Jdne5b
Gold $$ Contributor
Check that loaded round measurement. Typo? .334?
Last edited:
Yes, you know what I meant.
Jdne5b
Gold $$ Contributor
Irslow. Took me a min.Yes, you know what I meant.
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