I don't shoot ladders

[INTJ]

I’ve had them look good at 300 and fall apart at 550 then as Alex says cover some ground on each side and bring it back together.

J

I have not had that issue when I have a good 200 yd tune. But I am very thorough in my 200 yd testing. I shoot five-shot groups. I track velocity and ES. I fine tune powder charge after finding best seating depth, then I recheck seating depth with the fine tuned powder charge. I like to see four .18 MOA 5-shot groups shot on different days.

I am happy with my process. The last time I was able to validate my 200 yd tune at 1000 yds, I shot three consecutive sub 2" 3-shot groups on tuning day.

That said, I wasn't trying to hijack the thread and start a conversation on my current tuning efforts. I was just showing the target I use to tune loads to illustrate how it allows an easy way to see both group size and vertical location.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Its great to have posts about methods proven to be working.

 

[wbm]

I don't shoot ladders

Good idea.

 

[JFrank]

I have not had that issue when I have a good 200 yd tune. But I am very thorough in my 200 yd testing. I shoot five-shot groups. I track velocity and ES. I fine tune powder charge after finding best seating depth, then I recheck seating depth with the fine tuned powder charge. I like to see four .18 MOA 5-shot groups shot on different days.

I am happy with my process. The last time I was able to validate my 200 yd tune at 1000 yds, I shot three consecutive sub 2" 3-shot groups on tuning day.

That said, I wasn't trying to hijack the thread and start a conversation on my current tuning efforts. I was just showing the target I use to tune loads to illustrate how it allows an easy way to see both group size and vertical location.

Are you coming to Montana next week?

 

[INTJ]

Are you coming to Montana next week?

No, wish I could. I am still unemployed, though I do have job interviews next week and the week after. When are you coming to Tri-County again?

 

[JFrank]

No, wish I could. I am still unemployed, though I do have job interviews next week and the week after. When are you coming to Tri-County again?

Unemployed!!
Is that pandemic related or self inflicted?? I’m familiar with the latter and quite frankly I never want to see a interview room ever again. I have a stack of rejection letters from Building Inspector interviews. ( long story / wrong story).....
Driving to Portland for a one day event would be tough also put my life at risk so it’s doubtful I’ll get there, besides y’all are a bunch of sharks’ and like the man said ( if ya don’t know weather your a shark or a fish then you ain’t a shark!) lol
Anyway I’ll head to Missoula Thursday with a few charges ready to test Friday and plenty of prepped brass and components.
Jim

 

[INTJ]

Unemployed!!
Is that pandemic related or self inflicted?? I’m familiar with the latter and quite frankly I never want to see a interview room ever again. I have a stack of rejection letters from Building Inspector interviews. ( long story / wrong story).....
Driving to Portland for a one day event would be tough also put my life at risk so it’s doubtful I’ll get there, besides y’all are a bunch of sharks’ and like the man said ( if ya don’t know weather your a shark or a fish then you ain’t a shark!) lol
Anyway I’ll head to Missoula Thursday with a few charges ready to test Friday and plenty of prepped brass and components.
Jim

You don't even have to go through Portland to get to the Range, but long drives for one day matches are a drag. I live in Springfield which is a 10 hour drive from Missoula.

I lost my job in Dec when my company reorganized again. Eliminating my position actually made sense (long story) and they gave me severance. This is the only time in the 36 years of my professional working life that I have been unemployed.

When they cut me loose the economy was strong and there were a lot of job opportunities. Then Covid hit and everything was delayed. Then when they shut down the schools my wife's braille transcriptioning business completely dried up. So I went from three sources of income to one. Unemployment and savings are getting us through.

I have very promising interviews, one in a couple days and the other a week later. When the schools start up, even if online only, there is a good chance my wife will be slammed with work so we will be fine though all this.

 

[JFrank]

@INTJ
I hate “promising” interviews prefer to have the dirt on um then go for the jugular

 

[jackieschmidt]

If the goal is purely to minimize SD, I can see the logic of pursuing a velocity flat spot.

But unless you're shooting match where targets don't matter and it's only Chrono readings, then I'd tend to think Damon is exactly right. I think far to often we chase things as ends to themselves rather than realizing they are means to an end. That end is small groups and repeatable accuracy. If you achieve that with less than impressive SD or ES or whatever, then it's fine.

I apply this logic to many areas of my life. For example, music is a hearing art. If it sounds right, it is right. It doesn't matter what a tuner says or what a critic says.

Shooting as we do it is about accuracy. If it shoots, it's right. PERIOD. "If it groups, there's no OOPS."

The never ending quest for SD and ES reminds me of the car guys and chassis dyno numbers.

“she’s making 800 at the rear wheels”

Never mind that it just blows the tires away and goes sideways.

“I found a load that gave 10 EX and 4 SD”.

And shoots 2 1/2 inch groups at 300 yards.

getting great SD and ES numbers in an honest 2 tenths rifle is the trick.

 

[Dave Way]

The never ending quest for SD and ES reminds me of the car guys and chassis dyno numbers.

“she’s making 800 at the rear wheels”

Never mind that it just blows the tires away and goes sideways.

“I found a load that gave 10 EX and 4 SD”.

And shoots 2 1/2 inch groups at 300 yards.

getting great SD and ES numbers in an honest 2 tenths rifle is the trick.

I agree 100%. I consider velocity or its consistency nothing more than a distraction anymore. Run your seating and powder tests at distance. Find the node, then get serious about group testing. The last thing on my mind is velocity, ES or SD. Proper reloading technique keeps those numbers in check. Whenever I do check, both are in single digits.

Dave.

 

[2moreclicks]

The never ending quest for SD and ES reminds me of the car guys and chassis dyno numbers.

“she’s making 800 at the rear wheels”

Never mind that it just blows the tires away and goes sideways.

“I found a load that gave 10 EX and 4 SD”.

And shoots 2 1/2 inch groups at 300 yards.

getting great SD and ES numbers in an honest 2 tenths rifle is the trick.

Consistent Accuracy is the main goal.
consistent small groups in the 2’s and consistent velocity you usually got a load. I don’t like to ignore anything I just try deferent thing to bring them down.

Put some drag slicks on that car and your ES will go down in the 1/4 mile and the car will be more consistent

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Groups are all that matter. Guys shooting 6" groups at 1k worry about ES all the time. Until your shooting 2" at 1k 20 fps ES is not hurting you.

 

[2moreclicks]

Groups are all that matter. Guys shooting 6" groups at 1k worry about ES all the time. Until your shooting 2" at 1k 20 fps ES is not hurting you.

Ok I’m still in the leaning stage and plan on staying there always willing to learn new tricks. ES don’t matter? Let’s say ES of 20-30 range over 20shot strings will not tell on you at the end oF your 3rd relay total of 60shots for record.

I agree that groups matter because if the group is 2”1/2 at 300yds as stated above I don’t look at the crono because I don’t care it not gonna work

Now when I’m shooting dimes at 300 and ES is 20 I all ways try a to get it down.

I’m not trying argue just listen and learn.
Will ES of 20-30 come in to play over 60shots at a grand?

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I have seen many 5 shot 1.5-3" groups with 10-20+ ES. My advise is until you equal that level of accuracy do not worry about ES until it exceeds 20 fps. If it does not hurt 5 shots it wont hurt 30.

 

[KenOath]

I have not had that issue when I have a good 200 yd tune. But I am very thorough in my 200 yd testing. I shoot five-shot groups. I track velocity and ES. I fine tune powder charge after finding best seating depth, then I recheck seating depth with the fine tuned powder charge. I like to see four .18 MOA 5-shot groups shot on different days.

I am happy with my process. The last time I was able to validate my 200 yd tune at 1000 yds, I shot three consecutive sub 2" 3-shot groups on tuning day.

That said, I wasn't trying to hijack the thread and start a conversation on my current tuning efforts. I was just showing the target I use to tune loads to illustrate how it allows an easy way to see both group size and vertical location.

I do the same tuning with my Bench-gun, has worked well for me also..

 

[Lefty Trigger]

Over the years I have described my tuning method as 1k ladder testing or 3 shot ladders. I think that has led to some confusion for those trying to follow the method, because any other information you will gather on a ladder with be a true ladder. The method I use is actually just 3 shot groups. I shoot them all at one time, as groups, and quickly at the same aim point. This helps get them all down in one condition. You could shoot them at different aim points and get the same data but that would slow you down and take up a large target. You read the target the same way no matter what method you use, your looking at group size, shape, and position on the target relative to the other groups. I do not use single shot, true ladders, except on sporter weight barrels to rough in, and then I follow up with 3 shot groups. I see guys shooting single shot ladders at closer ranges, and in many cases they are totally unreadable, but it seems like any time a ladder is shot guys will have to pick a load from it no matter what rather than tossing the whole thing. I know it has caused a lot of tail chasing. Theres a pattern we are looking for when it comes to poi shift on target and random is not it. In some cases a single shot ladder will print text book and its usable. That will only happen if you got lucky and gave it the right powder, bullet, primer, and where really close on seating depth and the rifle has to be very accurate. I never recommend a ladder for factory rifles, or for someone not very confident in their shooting. The point I am trying to make is that 2 or 3 shots landing near each other could have easily been the high and low shots of vertical loads, had you shot a couple more you would have seen all the vertical.

So what about us folks that have no access to anything beyond 300 yards then. I have been told by Sierra more than once that long slender bullet dont start to lay flat until about 300 yards so tuning at short distances will give false readings of accuracy. This is why I'm giving up on long range loads, building me a "short range" 6mm BR with the help of good member on here. Slow twist, light weight bullets and one hole groups out to 300 yards.

 

[newbieshooter]

So what about us folks that have no access to anything beyond 300 yards then. I have been told by Sierra more than once that long slender bullet dont start to lay flat until about 300 yards so tuning at short distances will give false readings of accuracy. This is why I'm giving up on long range loads, building me a "short range" 6mm BR with the help of good member on here. Slow twist, light weight bullets and one hole groups out to 300 yards.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...chris-nicholss-600-yard-light-and-heavy-guns/
tunes at 300 yards....

 

[BartsBullets]

So what about us folks that have no access to anything beyond 300 yards then. I have been told by Sierra more than once that long slender bullet dont start to lay flat until about 300 yards so tuning at short distances will give false readings of accuracy. This is why I'm giving up on long range loads, building me a "short range" 6mm BR with the help of good member on here. Slow twist, light weight bullets and one hole groups out to 300 yards.

Several Top shooters tune at 300 yards and do very well at 600 and 1000 yard competition. I tune at 100 yards and my guns are competitive at 600 or 1000. It can be done.

Bart

 

[Ccrider]

Several Top shooters tune at 300 yards and do very well at 600 and 1000 yard competition. I tune at 100 yards and my guns are competitive at 600 or 1000. It can be done.

Bart

Bart, looking at your 100yd tune, it is obvious that you have your 600/1000 yd Guns consistently shooting in the ones or better with a forgiving tune at 100. I have noticed that a few of the other well experienced shooters on here do the same.

My limited experience is that it is a lots harder to tune a Dasher to shoot zeros and ones at 100 than it is a ppc.

 

[BartsBullets]

Bart, looking at your 100yd tune, it is obvious that you have your 600/1000 yd Guns consistently shooting in the ones or better with a forgiving tune at 100. I have noticed that a few of the other well experienced shooters on here do the same.

My limited experience is that it is a lots harder to tune a Dasher to shoot zeros and ones at 100 than it is a ppc.

I never got a Dasher to shoot the way I could a 6BR, Grinch, or 6BRA. But I know guys that get their Dasher drilling. It’s got a lot to do with LEARNING what makes your particular cartridge work.

Bart