I don't shoot ladders

[Alex Wheeler]

Over the years I have described my tuning method as 1k ladder testing or 3 shot ladders. I think that has led to some confusion for those trying to follow the method, because any other information you will gather on a ladder with be a true ladder. The method I use is actually just 3 shot groups. I shoot them all at one time, as groups, and quickly at the same aim point. This helps get them all down in one condition. You could shoot them at different aim points and get the same data but that would slow you down and take up a large target. You read the target the same way no matter what method you use, your looking at group size, shape, and position on the target relative to the other groups. I do not use single shot, true ladders, except on sporter weight barrels to rough in, and then I follow up with 3 shot groups. I see guys shooting single shot ladders at closer ranges, and in many cases they are totally unreadable, but it seems like any time a ladder is shot guys will have to pick a load from it no matter what rather than tossing the whole thing. I know it has caused a lot of tail chasing. Theres a pattern we are looking for when it comes to poi shift on target and random is not it. In some cases a single shot ladder will print text book and its usable. That will only happen if you got lucky and gave it the right powder, bullet, primer, and where really close on seating depth and the rifle has to be very accurate. I never recommend a ladder for factory rifles, or for someone not very confident in their shooting. The point I am trying to make is that 2 or 3 shots landing near each other could have easily been the high and low shots of vertical loads, had you shot a couple more you would have seen all the vertical.

 

[R.Morehouse]

Over the years I have described my tuning method as 1k ladder testing or 3 shot ladders. I think that has led to some confusion for those trying to follow the method, because any other information you will gather on a ladder with be a true ladder. The method I use is actually just 3 shot groups. I shoot them all at one time, as groups, and quickly at the same aim point. This helps get them all down in one condition. You could shoot them at different aim points and get the same data but that would slow you down and take up a large target. You read the target the same way no matter what method you use, your looking at group size, shape, and position on the target relative to the other groups. I do not use single shot, true ladders, except on sporter weight barrels to rough in, and then I follow up with 3 shot groups. I see guys shooting single shot ladders at closer ranges, and in many cases they are totally unreadable, but it seems like any time a ladder is shot guys will have to pick a load from it no matter what rather than tossing the whole thing. I know it has caused a lot of tail chasing. Theres a pattern we are looking for when it comes to poi shift on target and random is not it. In some cases a single shot ladder will print text book and its usable. That will only happen if you got lucky and gave it the right powder, bullet, primer, and where really close on seating depth and the rifle has to be very accurate. I never recommend a ladder for factory rifles, or for someone not very confident in their shooting. The point I am trying to make is that 2 or 3 shots landing near each other could have easily been the high and low shots of vertical loads, had you shot a couple more you would have seen all the vertical.

Alex
When you quickly run your 3 shot groups do you first warm the barrel up a bit?......Thanks

Regards
Rick

 

[JFrank]

Thanks for posting that method Alex, I’ve been lucky on one shot progression ladders and I’ve been frustrated by a couple as well.
Last Friday I watched a competitor tune with three shots each at 1k ( using colored Bullets) then choosing the best load proceeded to load up and shoot very well all weekend.
I’ve only tried it a few times but for myself the path forward is pretty clear.
Thx again
Jim

 

[Mulligan]

Thanks for posting that method Alex, I’ve been lucky on one shot progression ladders and I’ve been frustrated by a couple as well.
Last Friday I watched a competitor tune with three shots each at 1k ( using colored Bullets) then choosing the best load proceeded to load up and shoot very well all weekend.
I’ve only tried it a few times but for myself the path forward is pretty clear.
Thx again
Jim

I like to run a couple of 1 shot ladders to find a good starting place for four shots groups shot round robin. Maybe I should switch to three shot groups?
CW

 

[JFrank]

@Mulligan
Clay you shoot well enough already, maybe give someone else a chance at the podium.

Just messin Buddy
J

 

[CaptainMal]

Kind of like what Alex says, I found a "positive barrel compensation" load for the new Roy Hunter A bullets like that at 600. Just two - three shots at different powder amounts, watching the camera and recording where they hit under rather normal temperature conditions. I easily saw a .4 of a grain range with an impact that was the same with no vertical. That gave me a range and based on temperature changes in the future, I took near the bottom of that range. Faster or slower, they do go into the same height area.

Then went to a seating depth test the next time at the range. Found one with little horizontal and good vertical as expected. In step three I "tweaked" the tuner a teeny bit. Done. It's a three-step process and simple. Actually, two-step if you don't have a tuner. Also think Alex is an inspiration to make tuning simple.

Ironically, Roy Hunter text me yesterday to tell me more of his bullets are on their way. Life is good.

 

[Mulligan]

@Mulligan
Clay you shoot well enough already, maybe give someone else a chance at the podium.

Just messin Buddy
J

Dude! My daughter kicked my butt at the last match!!!! It was so awesome to see her shoot is some extremely challenging conditions!! Three of my Granddaughters were at the match watching their mom, shoot. Guess what, they all want to shoot now...... One happy grandpa!
CW

 

[urbanrifleman]

Alex Wheeler always has the best threads.

 

[Fast14riot]

That's very similar to what I do, but I use separate aiming points, round robin. I just draw a horizontal line across a blank target and put hash marks for each aiming point I need. This helps me gauge the vertical trend of the group. Only adjustment I make is the windage on my rest.

 

[mikecr]

I assumed everyone fine tuned with grouping(incremental load development), and that ladder shooting is merely prerequisite to this. That ladder is not for picking a load from, but to see where there is no potential to waste time with.

When you have no idea where to begin with a potentially large spread of loads, instead of shooting a large number of groups, you shoot a ~20rnd ladder first, and then choose better areas for followup group shooting.

If you're just swapping barrels, same everything but that, and you already know your load +/- a grain, then might as well go right to incremental load development.
But if a new gun, new chamber, new ammo, new everything, shoot a ladder first. Otherwise, you'll either get lucky or chase your tail like a nine-eyed dog..

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Im trying to make a couple points

One is that every good tuning method is doing the exact same thing. Looking at group size, position on the target and shape of the group. We want to see the shape, it tells us what the barrel is doing. Is it traveling up and down (vertical group), is it traveling left and right (horizontal group) is it oscillating (triangle group) or is it stable (one hole group)? We want to see poi. Are the bullets exiting the barrel at a point thats stable? Or are adjacent groups moving a lot? And are they small? Does the barrel like the bullet and powder?

I see the "read my ladder" posts. Most of the time they are not usable but something about a ladder makes folks chase any 2 or 3 shots that happen to be close to each other. No matter how random all the other shots are.

If a ladder prints perfectly it can be usable, but when it doesnt its worthless.

My experience is that I like to see a barrel harmonic mostly in the vertical plane. POI shifts left and right usually tell me to change powders.

It does not matter if you shoot a ladder, 3 shot groups at targets, or on a horizontal line, they all need to be read the same.

I choose to do this at long range to take advantage of what can be learned, but other than that the methods are all basically the same. We are just looking at what the barrel is doing when the bullets are exiting.

 

[Mulligan]

Im trying to make a couple points

One is that every good tuning method is doing the exact same thing. Looking at group size, position on the target and shape of the group. We want to see the shape, it tells us what the barrel is doing. Is it traveling up and down (vertical group), is it traveling left and right (horizontal group) is it oscillating (triangle group) or is it stable (one hole group)? We want to see poi. Are the bullets exiting the barrel at a point thats stable? Or are adjacent groups moving a lot? And are they small? Does the barrel like the bullet and powder?

I see the "read my ladder" posts. Most of the time they are not usable but something about a ladder makes folks chase any 2 or 3 shots that happen to be close to each other. No matter how random all the other shots are.

If a ladder prints perfectly it can be usable, but when it doesnt its worthless.

My experience is that I like to see a barrel harmonic mostly in the vertical plane. POI shifts left and right usually tell me to change powders.

It does not matter if you shoot a ladder, 3 shot groups at targets, or on a horizontal line, they all need to be read the same.



I choose to do this at long range to take advantage of what can be learned, but other than that the methods are all basically the same. We are just looking at what the barrel is doing when the bullets are exiting.

Good stuff
Thanks Alex
CW

 

[dcali]

I do something very similar. I shoot multiple one shot/charge ladders until I have enough data points to draw a reasonable plot of velocity vs impact point. (Three or so does the trick). Once you're in a node, it's time to shoot some groups and get them round and small. This only works for very accurate rifles. (Honestly, I don't really even bother tuning factory/AR stuff - the juice isn't worth the squeeze).

And I'll say it again - looking for a velocity vs charge weight "flat spot" doesn't work. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[comagutsa]

i've only started shooting ladders last few barrels and have been trying to get my head around them.. this latest barrel i made up 3 rounds of of same powder charge and had 8 different powder charges
i also did same powder charges with 3 different bullets to see what worked .. i shot at 400m/437y (that's all i could do at range) and did the same point of aim in a round robin with allowing the barrel to cool between strings, had approx 10mph from right to left and its a bit hard to read but after 2 strings i was getting all excited with the 105gr hybrids as 3, 4 and 5 were all on the same vert but when i did the 3rd string i had 3 and 4 drop big time with 6 dropping a little bit but i thought id retest between 3,4,5 and 6 as it showed promise ..i also did 108gr BT also and it was like chalk and cheese between them (didnt get a pic of them) and 107SMK were crap


now i redid loads 3 to 6 with 105gr hybrids again at 400m and and loads 6,7 and 8 with the 108gr BT as these showed the most promise
but this time i shot 4 rounds of each charge and i didn't do the round robin style (but after reading Alex bit i wont stop between different loads next time to allow barrel to cool)
but it did show me a lot (this was done with approx 10mph head wind switching from right to left)

as you can see green and red did alright except for the 1 green low and 1 red high, the others were under an inch of vert, not bad for a bit of head wind at 400m but i didn't like it with those ones low and high

the 108gr BT were a lot better, all 8 rounds just under an inch vert


my labradar played silly buggers on the 1st shots reading 30fps faster and i don't know why and this barrel is a slow barrel (my old barrel 4 groove with 35.1gr of H4350 and 105gr hybrids was giving me 3007fps where as this barrel 5R with same load was approx 2930fps)
will load between the Red 35.6gr and Green 35.4gr and test seating depth then adjust my EC tuner and see how it goes but next time i will do what Alex suggests and give it a go

all the different ways to try and tune your gun, just need to find a way that i like and works for me ..can get confusing sometimes

cheers

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I do not recommend round robin. If conditions are mild and you shoot really fast its ok, but in general shooting the individual groups will get you better data.

If you shoot 3 shot groups at different targets, then lay them all on top of each other you end up with a "ladder". Thats a good way to picture it and will help you read it better imo.

 

[ttfreestyle]

Ok off to shoot a “3shot group ladder thingy” in a bit. Hopefully I can shoot good enough to get some good data, lotta rust on me....

Not sure what I learned or even if I shot well, I am having to reposition my hand to keep my stiff fingers from getting hit which I think is getting shoulder pressure on the butt at times. This was a powder test in 2 tenth increments starting with load A.
Shots 1-3 Load A
Shots 4-6 Load B
Shots 7-9 Load C
Shots 10-12 Load D.

 

[sandwarrior]

Over the years I have described my tuning method as 1k ladder testing or 3 shot ladders. I think that has led to some confusion for those trying to follow the method, because any other information you will gather on a ladder with be a true ladder. The method I use is actually just 3 shot groups. I shoot them all at one time, as groups, and quickly at the same aim point. This helps get them all down in one condition. You could shoot them at different aim points and get the same data but that would slow you down and take up a large target. You read the target the same way no matter what method you use, your looking at group size, shape, and position on the target relative to the other groups. I do not use single shot, true ladders, except on sporter weight barrels to rough in, and then I follow up with 3 shot groups. I see guys shooting single shot ladders at closer ranges, and in many cases they are totally unreadable, but it seems like any time a ladder is shot guys will have to pick a load from it no matter what rather than tossing the whole thing. I know it has caused a lot of tail chasing. Theres a pattern we are looking for when it comes to poi shift on target and random is not it. In some cases a single shot ladder will print text book and its usable. That will only happen if you got lucky and gave it the right powder, bullet, primer, and where really close on seating depth and the rifle has to be very accurate. I never recommend a ladder for factory rifles, or for someone not very confident in their shooting. The point I am trying to make is that 2 or 3 shots landing near each other could have easily been the high and low shots of vertical loads, had you shot a couple more you would have seen all the vertical.

As you noted, I think this is a 'tuning' ladder. For me, what you are doing is when I do the second ladder. 'Tuning' it in with smaller adjustments. My first ladder is basically 2 shot with a .3gr. increase to find nodes and pressure limits with a given bullet/powder. The second is dialing in the best groups, 3-5 shots. Typically though, I don't often get out to 1k.

FWIW, I get frustrated with guys coming on saying, "Gimme the highest node 'Quickload' you've got." That IS NOT SAFE! At least with a ladder (of any kind) you've done your homework and worked up.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Agreed, a true ladder is ok for roughing in, and I do still use them for that. I call them pressure ladders because Im really looking for a safe working pressure and a window to start tuning in.

 

[Hohn]

And I'll say it again - looking for a velocity vs charge weight "flat spot" doesn't work. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

If the goal is purely to minimize SD, I can see the logic of pursuing a velocity flat spot.

But unless you're shooting match where targets don't matter and it's only Chrono readings, then I'd tend to think Damon is exactly right. I think far to often we chase things as ends to themselves rather than realizing they are means to an end. That end is small groups and repeatable accuracy. If you achieve that with less than impressive SD or ES or whatever, then it's fine.

I apply this logic to many areas of my life. For example, music is a hearing art. If it sounds right, it is right. It doesn't matter what a tuner says or what a critic says.

Shooting as we do it is about accuracy. If it shoots, it's right. PERIOD. "If it groups, there's no OOPS."

 

[Hohn]

I do not recommend round robin. If conditions are mild and you shoot really fast its ok, but in general shooting the individual groups will get you better data.

If you shoot 3 shot groups at different targets, then lay them all on top of each other you end up with a "ladder". Thats a good way to picture it and will help you read it better imo.

If only there was a way to get the old overhead projector acetates and use them as targets. Then we could overlay them exactly this way and very easily see a "ladder" emerge.