Hunters Responsibility

[LHSmith]

Head shots on big game? Why is it that some think this shot is either 100% fatal or a non-wound miss? I have tried it ....once.....I have seen the results when others have attempted it ....and failed to make an instant kill.....it is the most gruesome sight I have seen in the field ....and I won't go into details.
400 yards, with no accurate means to measure wind drift, no means to gauge mirage, and possibly with no means to adjust the parallax out of their optics, not to mention the deer can move at any given moment.

 

[Raythemanroe]

I know this wouldn't sit well with the modern political climate but Hunters education and gun safety offered in our schools would be a great idea. If people like it or not 80% of households have a gun in them.

I can't make a judgment call on some ones ability to make a shot, I know to many folks that I am surprised if they hit a deer. I would think there is more then a few people on here that 3-400 yards is a chip shot, but on the other hand probably 90% of hunters can't. I drive truck and have run or operated heavy equipment since I could get behind the wheel. My wife asked me one day if I thought if she was a good driver. I answered a good driver is one that knows his or her limitations. I would guess that is true for hunters and you can't get that without experience. Without a good teacher unless you are learning by trial and error!

Take a youngster out and start them young.

 

[GSPV]

Head shot at 400 yards being gravy in ND wind? Consider the flag thrown.

Quick, without looking, what is the 20 mph, 90 degree wind angle, point of impact for your rifle/load?

What is the real diameter of an ethical head shot? I don't think that there is an ethical head shot on big game except in fringe situations, but I'm willing to argue the diameter for the purposes at hand.

What is your real ability to judge 400 yards in field conditions? Up hill, down hill, across a gulch, in dim light?

What is your real ability to judge the winds? Plural intentional, because there is likely to be more than one wind.

Assuming everything else was perfect, how well can you hold aim at 400 yards? I.e., what is your error, just from wiggle in your hold, at 400 yards?

How accurate is just your rifle with your hunting loads in hunting conditions? Not your target load. Not from a bench? No distance, no wind, no wiggle, just the rifle and load at the temperature and humidity that your hunting? Do you know?

Mirage? Paralax if fixed paralax? How much does your hunting reticle cover at 400 yards? A twitch of target from the time you mentally commit till the bullet arrives?

My point is that all this stuff can stack up on you. Far from gravy. Best to leave the head shot alone. Let them walk, if that's all that you have.

 

[CJ6]

Texas heart shot? That is a new one to me. I guess when you use point and bang rifles it is easy to miss the head shot.

Texas heart shot is shooting the "south end" of an animal facing north. It makes a HORRENDOUS mess inside.

 

[chino1969]

Nothing grates me more than an ill prepared hunter who feels they have a right to shoot or wound an animal just because they are in possession of a hunting license. It doesn't matter whether you are shooting varmints or world class trophies, you should take the time to be proficent with your weapon at all anticipated ranges and scenarios.

 

[people]

GSPV throw the card all you want. From what you typed I can tell you do not long range hunt at all. You said quick. If you did hunt long range you would know nothing happens fast at all. If it is happening fast you should not take the shot.

I hunt like a sniper. I do not stomp around all day like my family likes to do. I setup and watch. Yes I dial in my scope using a ballistic calculator. Yes there is general wind you need to know above what your meter is telling you currently. That is where you get very good by only shooting one or two shots at a time.

The actual spots you need to put a bullet in a deer is not as small as most think they are. You will also be surprised how a 300gr SMK will trench out a deer head. While I have seen a 243 take a jaw off a deer from maybe 50yds. I also have seen what a 300gr SMK does to a head from 327ishyds with a very similar shot. The jaw was blown completely off with much more damage than the 243 caused. This shot was the one that caused me to get a much better range finder. I say 327ish yds because my new range finder will give me the same reading time and time again. The POS one I had before would bounce around off of the same target. Now I shoot a 220gr SMK and that bullet while not the 338 is also a deer killing bullet.

I do not usually take pictures of my kills for various reasons but there is one I do have. My brother took it for me. It was at 596yds very slowly walking right to left and slightly away. The wind was blowing with him but far faster and gustier than he was walking. If memory serves I would think it was in the 10-15mph range. That is the exit side. When you are in a good position where you handle recoil you get to see cool things. I did see daylight through the hole for a split second. Yes the hole is a cone just like the old fashion ice-cream cones.

Does anyone want to know where I was holding when I shot?

 

[Raythemanroe]

To me taking a deer at a known distance with a solid rest is less shady then some pop shot at a running deer while walking threw the woods..I would bet most deer are shot while the hunter is on foot walking in the woods and the majority of those hunters never practiced off hand shooting after sighting in off the rest!

 

[LHSmith]

I hunt like a sniper. I do not stomp around all day like my family likes to do. I setup and watch. Yes I dial in my scope using a ballistic calculator. Yes there is general wind you need to know above what your meter is telling you currently. That is where you get very good by only shooting one or two shots at a time.

The actual spots you need to put a bullet in a deer is not as small as most think they are. You will also be surprised how a 300gr SMK will trench out a deer head. While I have seen a 243 take a jaw off a deer from maybe 50yds. I also have seen what a 300gr SMK does to a head from 327ishyds with a very similar shot. The jaw was blown completely off with much more damage than the 243 caused. This shot was the one that caused me to get a much better range finder.

OK Carlos H..misjudge a moderate crosswind by 5 mph and you will miss your 4" kill zone and either hit the animal in the neck, horns....or knock off his jaw or snout while he stands there sucking in blood .......and an anecdotal story about a 1x hit in not a true indicator of the bullets terminal damage....since the head is a bony mass with acute angles, so bullet performance will be unpredictable.
Unless ND winds are unique, wind energy is a fluid mass which is humanly impossible to predict 100% of the time. Watch a corn or grain field on a day with a stiff breeze and notice how difficult it is to discern patterns.....let alone velocity.......and the changes do come fast.
I am puzzled by your interpretation of a "general " wind that is out there away from your meter?
Having said all that, I don't care if your David Tubb or Tony Boyer, one thing you cannot predict or make an educated guess on your learned lifelong skills is when that deer will move his head ....even ever so slightly.
I do hunt whitetails from a highly elevated stand overlooking several dozen acres of marsh.....I can see deer as far as 1200 yards away. Much of the time (especially a sunny day) the deers head will show up like a light bulb against the marsh grass and scrubs.....the problem is just that....the bodies remain hidden in the marsh runways and it is a waiting game for them to step up on a bog to reach some redbrush to eat. Some years you never get the opportunity for a heart-lung shot during the season, but it's BTDT too many times to chance anymore headshots......even if they are 100 yards away. ....and I shoot most weekends (40 wks out of the year 100-300 yds, and compete in registered short range BR. I have watched huge bucks for sometimes an hour through a spotting scope from this stand .....and they are constantly moving their nose to the wind.It's called "HUNTING" for a reason.

 

[langenc]

Certainly agree the "Texas heart Shot" is a PIA.

Also agree with the original comments. Only thing is the solution is education and change. For the majority of hunters that kind of change is not reasonably possible.
[
/quote]


Did a deer tell you that???

 

[GSPV]

Say what you want, People. Anyone that takes a headshot at 400 yards, except in fringe circumstances, is letting hubris overcome their good sense.

I've seen it happen more than once. It's really sickening to watch a deer run away with its jaw shot off. Sooner or later, it's going to happen. Pretty disgusting and handing ammo right to the antis.

 

[Raythemanroe]

people,

That was a good shot, cause that thing is coyote sized out here..

GSPV,

I wouldn't think anyone is saying a head shot at 400 is ethical!

 

[people]

I am not a sniper I just hunt like them.

If I knew I would need to post every kill that I have taken with my rifle I would have taken pictures.

My skills to pay the bills are different than yours. You know different strokes for different folks. I like the long range game and others do not nor can they.

I know how much it sucks to find a down deer in cattails. I blasted one in the head and it took longer than I thought it would to find it. When I did find the deer it was right where I shot it. The cattails had deer mist all over them.

 

[Trapper243]

The fun part of all this is figuring out what your limitations are. Shooting far is one skillset and being able to get so close you can see the moisture on their nose is another. I strive to be able to do both, at times with mixed results. Every once in a while I remind myself, that when I was younger all I had, and needed, was an old 32 special.

 

[tjtjwdad]

Nice discussion including all the points & counterpoints. For me, even if the shot is there, it is safe to take the shot and I can make the shot; if the animal cannot be recovered or harvested, I let it go.

 

[wvlongshot]

Very interesting. I guess all those pdogs and ground hogs that get back to the hole after the shot, all busted up but not dead, are different than ole mr whitetail deer? Nobody clean kills all those long distance varmints. There are way more deer on my farms than groundhogs, they destroy more fence, trees, cars than anything else. Crop damage permits are handed out 20 at a time. Killing deer is different than hunting deer. You do have the time and the tools for doing the job right.

 

[d.id]

That is very significant distinction. I do not have a depravation issue with dear so....dear and elk get respect and I will not take any shot at any range unless I know I can make a clean cold bore hit. Wolves and coyotes on the other hand...................How do you think I learned my limitations? You guessed it........ trying (and still highly successfully) to save my dear and elk from there "other" predators.

 

[jonbearman]

I encountered a buck shot in the lower jaw,it was hanging by conective tissue only.When I ran it down,I shot it,the animal was so jacked up on adrenaline that it took 2 more shots to end its life as fast as possible.It was so gruesome I felt it was ethical to put it down and use up my only yearly buck tag on it.I hunted with a guy till he shot a deer up the anus(texas heart shot) with an arrow,we dont hunt together and dont talk anymore period.

 

[LHSmith]

I encountered a buck shot in the lower jaw,it was hanging by conective tissue only.When I ran it down,I shot it,the animal was so jacked up on adrenaline that it took 2 more shots to end its life as fast as possible.It was so gruesome I felt it was ethical to put it down and use up my only yearly buck tag on it.I hunted with a guy till he shot a deer up the anus(texas heart shot) with an arrow,we dont hunt together and dont talk anymore period.

Thank you for that, It reminded me of my experiences....never can wipe those visions from memory.

 

[people]

It is not Wednesday, but it is good for the rest of the week.

http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers-hide-hunting-fishing/222479-head-shot-wednesdays.html

 

[LHSmith]

I wouldn't click on snippers-hide even if they had porn. :